[tux1968]

> An algorithm is an algorithm. A computer is a computer. These things matter.

Sure. But we're allowed to notice abstractions that are similar between these things. Unless you believe that logic and "thinking" are somehow magic, and thus beyond the realm of computation, then there's no reason to think they're restricted to humanity.

It is human ego and hubris that keeps demanding we're special and could never be fully emulated in silicon. It's the exact same reasoning that put the earth at the center of the universe, and humans as the primary focus of God's will.

That said, nobody is confused that LLM's are the intellectual equal of humans today. They're more powerful in some ways, and tremendously weaker in other ways. But pointing those differences out, is not a logical argument in proving their ultimate abilities.

[Octoth0rpe]

> Unless you believe that logic and "thinking" are somehow magic, and thus beyond the realm of computation

Worth noting that significant majority of the US population (though not necessarily developers) does in fact believe that, or at least belongs to a religious group for which that belief is commonly promulgated.

[goatlover]

I think computation is an abstraction, not the reality. Same with math. Reality just is, humans come up with maps and models of it, then mistake the maps for the reality, which often causes distortions and attribution errors across domains. One of those distortions is thinking consciousness has to be computable, when computation is an abstraction, and consciousness is experiential.

But it's a philosophical argument. Nothing supernatural about it either.

[tux1968]

You can play that game with any argument. "Consciousness" is just an abstraction, not the reality, which makes people who desperately want humans to be special, attribute it to something beyond reach of any other part of reality. It's an emotional need, placated by a philosophical outlook. Consciousness is just a model or map for a particular part of reality, and ironically focusing on it as somehow being the most important thing, makes you miss reality.

The reality is, we have devices in the real world that have demonstrable, factual capabilities. They're on the spectrum of what we'd call "intelligence". And therefore, it's natural that we compare them to other things that are also on that spectrum. That's every bit as much factual, as anything you've said.

It's just stupid to get so lost in philosophical terminology, that we have to dismiss them as mistaken maps or models. The only people doing that, are hyper focused on how important humans are, and what makes them identifiably different than other parts of reality. It's a mistake that the best philosophers of every age keep making.

[pixl97]

I recommend starting here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness...

The argument you're attempting to have, and I believe failing at, is one of resolution of simulation.

Consciousness is 100% computable. Be that digitally (electrical), chemically, or quantumly. You don't have any other choices outside of that.

Moreso consciousness/sentience is a continuum going from very basic animals to the complexity of humans inner mind. Consciousness didn't just spring up, it evolved over millions of years, and therefore is made up of parts that are divisible.

[gf000]

Reality is. Consciousness is.. questionable. I have one. You? I don't know, I'm experiencing reality and you seem to have one, but I can never know it.

Computations on the other hand describe reality. And unless human brains somehow escape the physical reality, this description about the latter should surely apply here as well. There are no stronger computational models than a Turing machine, ergo whatever the human brain does (regardless of implementation) should be describable by one.

[pixl97]

>Reality is.

Look into quantum mechanics much and you may even begin to doubt that. We're just a statistical outcome!

[_qib3]

Worth noting that this is the thesis of Seeing Red: A study in consciousness. I think you will find it a good read, even if I disagreed with some of the ideas.

[rolph]

silicon is not a dynamic structure, silicon does not reengineer and reconfigure itself in response to success/failure or rules discovery.

[tux1968]

The atoms of your body are not dynamic structures, they do not reengineer or reconfigure themselves in response to success/failure or rules discovery. So by your own logic, you can not be intelligent, because your body is running on a non-dynamic structure. Your argument lacks an appreciation for higher level abstractions, built on non-dynamic structures. That's exactly what is happening in your body, and also with the software that runs on silicon. Unless you believe the atoms in your body are "magic" and fundamentally different from the atoms in silicon; there's really no merit in your argument.

[rolph]

>>he atoms of your body are not dynamic structures, they do not reengineer or reconfigure themselves in response to success/failure or rules discovery.<<

you should check out chemistry, and nuclear physics, it will probably blow your mind.

it seems you have an inside scoop, lets go through what is required to create a silicon logic gate that changes function according to past events, and projected trends?

[tux1968]

You're ignoring the point. The individual atoms of YOUR body do not learn. They do not respond to experience. You categorically stated that any system built on such components can not demonstrate intelligence. You need to think long and hard before posting this argument again.

Once you admit that higher level structures can be intelligent, even though they're built on non-dynamic, non-adaptive technology -- then there's as much reason to think that software running on silicon can do it too. Just like the higher level chemistry, nuclear physics, and any other "biological software" can do on top of the non-dynamic, non-learning, atoms of your body.

[rolph]

>>The individual atoms of YOUR body do not learn. They do not respond to experience<<

you are quite wrong on that. that is where you are failing to understand, you cant get past that idea.

there is also a large difference in scale. your silicon is going to need assembly/organization on the scale of individual molecules, and there will be self assembly required as that level of organization is constantly changing.

the barrier is mechanical scale construction, as the basic unit of function,that is why silicon and code cant adapt, cant exploit hysterisis, cant alter its own structure and function at an existentially fundamental level.

you are holding the wrong end of the stick. biology is not magic, it is a product of reality.

[tux1968]

No, you're failing to acknowledge that your own assertion that intelligence can't be based on a non-dynamic, non-learning technology is just wrong. And not only wrong, proof to the contrary, is demonstrated by your very own existence. If you accept that you are at the very base of your tech stack, just atoms, then you simply must acknowledge that intelligence can be built on top of a non-learning, non-dynamic base technology.

All the rest is just hand waiving that it's "different". You're either atoms, or you're somehow atoms + extra magic. I'm assuming you're not going to claim that you're extra magic, in which case, your assertions are just demonstrably false, and predicated on unjustified claims about the nature of biology.

[WarmWash]

Silicon is not dynamic, but code is.

The output of a silicon system that reprograms itself, and the output of a neural system that rearranges itself, are indistinguishable.

[rolph]

sorry, but you are absolutely wrong on that one, you yourself are absolute proof.

not only that code is only as dynamic as the rules of the language will permit.

silicon and code cant break the rule, or change the rules, biological adaptive hysteretic, out of band informatic neural systems do, and repeat, silicon and code cant.

[WarmWash]

Programming languages are turing complete...the boundary is mathematics itself.

Unless you are going to take the position that neural systems transcend mathmatics (i.e. they are magic), there is no theoretical reason that a brain can't run on silicon. It's all just numbers, no magic spirit energy.

We've had evolutionary algorithms and programs that self-train themselves for decades now.

[rolph]

mathematics, has a problem with uncertainties, and that is why math, as structured cant do it. magic makes a cool strawman, but there is no magic, you need to refine your awareness of physical reality. solid state silicon wont get you where you want to go. you should look at colloidal systems [however that leads to biology] or if energetic constraints are not an issue, plasma state quantum "computation".

also any such thing that is generated, must be responsive to consequences of its own activities, capable of meta-training, rather than being locked into a training programming. a system of aligned, emergent outcomes.

[WarmWash]

I don't know if you are a human or a micro LLM model asked to make smart sounding big word statements.