[rayiner]

> For an Italian like me, this whole process is nothing short of a miracle. I grew up in a city where metro train boarding during rush hour feels like a prelude to the apocalypse

Going Japan reminds me of coming to the U.S. from Bangladesh. It’s so clean, so orderly, so disciplined. I’m in a grumpy mood for weeks when I get back to the U.S. Our major cities are such dumps in comparison to Tokyo or Kyoto.

[righthand]

All of our non-major cities are even bigger dumps then. I live in Nyc for 8 years. I didn’t sit around the whole time b-ing and moaning that the city had a trash problem. I got involved in my community and active in the political movements here. When you start making issues visible and get your neighbors vocalizing the issues themselves, a lot more gets done than being in a “grumpy mood” about it indefinitely.

The real dumps are the people who complain along the way but make no effort to improve their world. Aka American culture.

[rayiner]

> I got involved in my community and active in the political movements here. When you start making issues visible and get your neighbors vocalizing the issues themselves

But you didn't actually succeed in cleaning up New York, right? So maybe the problem is a culture that prioritizes "making issues visible" and engaging the "community" in "political movements," instead of every parent teaching their child from a young age to pick up after themselves?

> All of our non-major cities are even bigger dumps then.

Most, but not all. I was shocked to my core when I visited Salt Lake City and Provo. The closest place to Japan in the whole U.S.

[socalgal2]

Is it a culture of "not my problem"?

Maybe bad example but, Let's say you spill some food at a fast food place, shopping mall, airport. Do you make an effort to clean it up yourself or are you like "It's someone's job to clean this place therefore I can just leave it for them".

Maybe that's too harsh an example but I see locals cleaning the streets in Japan, not government hired street sweepers. I don't know the details if they just did it, or if they registered to volunteer to be responsible for that area, or if there is more to it. And I also don't know if they feel put-out, as in "why am I doing this" vs proud for making the area clean.

> provo and salt lake

Not sure in what dimension? Plenty of neighborhoods in larger LA, SF, SD, Seattle, are clean.

[anigbrowl]

It's a mix of things. Japan's reputation for extreme cleanliness was partly engineered in preparation for the 1964 Olympics, in which organizers spent ~5% of the budget on beautification efforts. Arguably they started out from a higher personal baseline with bathing culture and there's also issues of population density, monoculture, and social sanctions. But there's also something of a gap between trope and reality; public urination is pretty common in Japan, especially at night, which shocks some people.

[rayiner]

I think you’re correct that it’s a culture of “someone else will do it.” Also, you can go further and pick up trash that doesn’t belong to you in an effort to keep the space clean for everyone: https://youtu.be/5N2eM7Za9Ss. In some cultures, it’s taboo to touch other people’s trash. In many more, it’s considered beneath the social class of people to clean up like that.

What amazed me about Provo and SLC was how clean and orderly the busy public spaces are, not just the nicer neighborhoods. There’s clean and orderly rich neighborhoods in every place in the world. Palo Alto pays people to go around and power wash everything. What’s rarer is places where even the busy tourist areas and lower income neighborhoods are clean. What you’ll see often in Tokyo are places that are not nice—worn out buildings, or buildings with mildew on white surfaces because it’s still a hot and humid country—but where the streets are clean and well kept.

[kjkjadksj]

In socal cleanliness depends on certain factors. Generally the clean areas are clean because someone is formally paid to maintain the property.

[PaulHoule]

"Making issues visible" can be kinda dangerous in that groups that do that become dependent on those issues continuing. Also they frequently misdiagnose problems: for instance homelessness is seen as a problem of "poverty" and not "management of severe mental illness".

It's true technically that the median homeless person is not mentally ill, but the median homeless person is "between apartments" and the intractable cases, the people who are screaming on the street corners and breeding pitbulls that bite people on the Ithaca Commons are a public health problem.

[righthand]

Yes we are succeeding.

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2025/09/16/good-trade-off-rat-ha...

https://gothamist.com/news/the-hottest-clubs-in-nyc-these-da...

I would even count Congestion Pricing as cleaning up the city:

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/traffic_and_transit/2025/12...

SLC is a major city and a dump then by your observation-only position.

> instead of every parent teaching their child from a young age to pick up after themselves

What? Are you going to fine or arrest every parent that doesn’t teach their kids to pick up after themselves? How has expecting parents to do that worked out so far? Their culture is similar to how you suggest to operate: just complain about society instead.

That’s why they don’t teach their kids to pick up after themselves.

[jondwillis]

Will you provide context around how you got involved and got your neighbors to vocalize? I think there’s a lot of learned helplessness and cynicism that gets in the way of making things better. I know I personally suffer from this and lack the tools, motivation, and follow-through to make an impact.

[righthand]

I’ll just link you to my reply but getting involved with a group about your specific first-world problem shouldn’t be difficult. For everything else either start a group or join one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46991515

I also protested during BLM and advocated for repealing 50-A amendment that gave criminal police protection from prosecution in NY. And we succeeded at that too!

[deaux]

Unfortunately your linked comment got flagged, so it might be nice to repeat it here as you can still see it.