[mlochbaum]

I was interested in how it would make sense to define complex numbers without fixing the reals, but I'm not terribly convinced by the method here. It seemed kind of suspect that you'd reduce the complex numbers purely to its field properties of addition and multiplication when these aren't enough to get from the rationals to the reals (some limit-like construction is needed; the article uses Dedekind cuts later on). Anyway, the "algebraic conception" is defined as "up to isomorphism, the unique algebraically closed field of characteristic zero and size continuum", that is, you just declare it has the same size as the reals. And of course now you have no way to tell where π is, since it has no algebraic relation to the distinguished numbers 0 and 1. If I'm reading right, this can be done with any uncountable cardinality with uniqueness up to isomorphism. It's interesting that algebraic closure is enough to get you this far, but with the arbitrary choice of cardinality and all these "wild automorphisms", doesn't this construction just seem... defective?

It feels a bit like the article's trying to extend some legitimate debate about whether fixing i versus -i is natural to push this other definition as an equal contender, but there's hardly any support offered. I expect the last-place 28% poll showing, if it does reflect serious mathematicians at all, is those who treat the topological structure as a given or didn't think much about the implications of leaving it out.

[mlochbaum]

More on not being able to find π, as I'm piecing it together: given only the field structure, you can't construct an equation identifying π or even narrowing it down, because if π is the only free variable then it will work out to finding roots of a polynomial (you only have field operations!) and π is transcendental so that polynomial can only be 0 (if you're allowed to use not-equals instead of equals, of course you can specify that π isn't in various sets of algebraic numbers). With other free variables, because the field's algebraically closed, you can fix π to whatever transcendental you like and still solve for the remaining variables. So it's something like, the rationals plus a continuum's worth of arbitrary field extensions? Not terribly surprising that all instances of this are isomorphic as fields but it's starting to feel about as useful as claiming the real numbers are "up to set isomorphism, the unique set whose cardinality matches the power set of the natural numbers", like, of course it's got automorphisms, you didn't finish defining it.

[zozbot234]

You need some notion of order or of metric structure if you want to talk about numbers being "close" enough to π. This is related to the property of completeness for the real numbers, which is rather important. Ultimately, the real numbers are also a rigorously defined abstraction for the common notion of approximating some extant but perhaps not fully known quantity.

[gowld]

The common metric on the reals one of only two that exist as completions of Q!

The other is the p-padics (basically, low-order bits matter more than high-order bits), which have distance but not ordering.

[gottheUIblues]

There are infinitely many different p-adic completions of the rationals for each prime p, so we have 2-adics, 3-adics, 5-adics etc, all different.

[scythe]

There's a related idea in mathematics, the proof that the real numbers are a vector space over the rational numbers. If you scramble the basis vectors, you obtain an isomorphic vector space, but it is effectively a "permutation" of |R. Of course, vector spaces don't even have multiplication, but one interesting thing is that the proof requires the axiom of choice.

I think that actually constructing a "nontrivial" model of C using the field conception might require choosing a member from each of an infinite family of sets, i.e. it requires applying the axiom of choice, similar to the way you construct R as a vector space.

[srean]

Vector space over which field ? The reals ? In that case you have got a chicken and egg problem.