[scottious]

Every morning I get to my son's school about 10 minutes before the doors open. We arrive by bike and we sit ALONE on the benches near the front door.

Meanwhile, the curb is full of extra large SUVs idling with kids just waiting inside the cars. The long line of SUVs extends all through the neighborhood. My son and I are alone because people just won't leave their cars until the doors open. A vast majority of the kids live within one mile of the school.

It's just one small anecdote, but I feel like it illustrates an attitude I've seen.

[Aurornis]

> Meanwhile, the curb is full of extra large SUVs idling with kids just waiting inside the cars

Anecdotally, when my work schedule was wonky for a while I would do the same with my kids. Those few extra minutes hanging out with them in the morning were something I valued a lot. We got to talk and relax a little bit after the rush of getting ready in the morning. They had all day to spend with their classmates so a few extra minutes in the morning wasn’t going to change much.

A suggestion: If you want to make friends with other parents, morning drop off is the worst time to do it because everyone is going from the rush of morning routines and mentally preparing for their jobs. After school is better, but the best is at events and activities away from school hours completely. Our schools have done parent socials that have been great for meeting people. Sports and activities are also a great way to get introduced to other families.

It also helps to be the one leading the charge. We’ll do things like go to the museum or other activities and then send invites to 5+ other families. Tell them to invite other families.

[scottious]

I am friends with a lot of other parents already. I do go out of my way to make friends. I already organize bike trips to the museum and stuff like that. I'm a very social person.

What I'm saying is that there are a lot of forces keeping people solitary and anti-social. This is just one of them. I know for a fact that some of these families waiting in their SUVs live a short walk from the school. Yet still they choose to isolate themselves. Sometimes the kids in these cars are literally yelling out the window to my son because they're friends. I don't want him going close to the cars because they've LITERALLY been pumping out pollution for 10-15 minutes (those early spots are very coveted). I have to tell my son to hold his breath when we bike on the empty sidewalk past these idling cars. It all just feels very anti-social and dystopian.

Sure, school drop off is just one small aspect of life. But because of drop-off culture, there are certain people who I may NEVER have a chance to interact with. Imagine if those parents instead walked with their kid. Maybe I would make a new friend. Maybe we'd have a nice conversation.

Last year there was another woman and her son waiting with me. They walked to school every day. We became friends just through school drop off in the morning. It brought some happiness into my life and made me feel a sense of community. She could have chosen to get in her car and wait in the long line of SUVs like everyone else, but luckily she didn't.

By essentially saying "stop caring about school drop off and look for other opportunities" it feels like you're missing my point: building community means showing up in lots of different ways, and consistently. The school drop-off example is just one example of many. A woman who lived on my street since the 80s said that back then nearly everybody walked to school. By switching to a car-based morning drop-off feels to me like we've lost something, even if it's just a small thing

[Aurornis]

> I know for a fact that some of these families waiting in their SUVs live a short walk from the school. Yet still they choose to isolate themselves.

Early morning in the narrow time between getting the kids ready and going into work is not the time to expect people to be social.

[insane_dreamer]

> I don't want him going close to the cars because they've LITERALLY been pumping out pollution for 10-15 minutes (those early spots are very coveted). I have to tell my son to hold his breath when we bike on the empty sidewalk past these idling cars.

social-interaction problems aside, why are the cars idling? seems like the school/city would have an ordinance prohibiting that

[tonfa]

So glad to live in a country where you'd get fined for that :)

[cozzyd]

Climate control. Heaven forbid spending a few degrees out of comfort zone.

[insane_dreamer]

or get an EV

[headsman771]

> I don't want him going close to the cars because they've LITERALLY been pumping out pollution for 10-15 minutes (those early spots are very coveted). I have to tell my son to hold his breath when we bike on the empty sidewalk past these idling cars. It all just feels very anti-social and dystopian.

Yes, I'm sure there's absolutely nothing you're doing to engender the general atmosphere of distrust...

[nostrademons]

Anecdotally my experience is dramatically different.

Last week I arrived by car right near the beginning of dropoff time. Pulling in right in front of me was the mom of one of my kid's classmates, carpooling with another kid who lives in the same apartment complex. The three of them met up as soon as they got out of the car, and then another one of their friends (who lives across the street from the school and usually walks) joined them from his driveway. They met up with a 5th friend before they crossed the street.

Then I walked - well, more like ran - with the 5 of them down the 111 steps that take us from the street level to the schoolyard. When they reached the bottom, they met up with 3 more friends who had just been let out of the drop-off zone in front of the school itself. Said a quick goodbye to my kid, but he wasn't really paying attention, he was already ensconced in his pack of 8.

I've gotten there with my kid before drop-off time, walked down the stairs with him, and there's been a pack of about 20-30 kids and 2-3 parents usually milling around before the school gates open.

I realize that this is somewhat atypical in 21st-century America, and we specifically chose this community because, well, it actually has a sense of community, but it's not unique. In preschool I'd take my son over to his preschool bestie's house (she lived about 2 cities away), and there'd be a whole pack of kids roaming the neighborhood going over unannounced to each other's houses.

[insane_dreamer]

Have seen this in Portland (lots of e-bikes with child carriers as well, even in the cold and rain), but not in more spread out cities.

[tuna74]

I think it is crazy that you have gates to get into the school grounds (buildings should be locked, I get that). Like my BIL in Sydney suburbs, he lives right next to a school with super nice basketball court etc, but can kids use those on weekends? Sadly no.

[nostrademons]

The gates here are open when school is not in session, and we (and other families) do in fact use the school grounds for playdates on weekends.

But yes, it sucks that they have to exist, and that my kids have active shooter drills and the school has a plan for what to do in a mass-casualty event. Though so far, every time they've triggered the secure campus protocols, it's because a baby coyote likes to hang out on the stairs.

[dalyons]

How do you find communities like that? It’s not exactly a Redfin search.

[nostrademons]

Word of mouth and on-the-ground sleuthing.

The community in question was put on our radar screen when we attended a party that one of my wife's business school friends threw. It's not well-known; even in our metro area, most people probably wouldn't recognize the name or be able to place it on a map.

But then when we were house-hunting, I just drove through all the residential neighborhoods within commuting distance of our jobs. And took note of where I saw people a.) out walking and b.) talking to their neighbors. Reported to my wife (who thought this was a nutty waste of time, but really values community) "I think you'll like it here", then paid the exorbitant home value to actually buy a home in the area. Indeed, we did like it here.

[mountainb]

If the medium is the message, the SUV communicates that there is only space for the nuclear family members, speed and comfort is of the essence, and the road is the only acceptable avenue for transportation. The sidewalks are for homeless people, jogging athletes, and eccentrics.

[bpt3]

Oh good grief, parents with SUVs aren't that complex, and they are often purchased to carry around their kids' friends as well (negating your first point).

People do what works for them within their budget, which often is a larger vehicle when you have kids. If you want to translate that as "speed and comfort is of the essence", then fine. I could say the same about someone with no kids who prefers living in a highly urbanized area because their definition of speed and comfort is different.

And virtually no one is thinking "I need to demonstrate my belief that traveling on foot is only for weirdos OR exercising" when purchasing a vehicle, both because not many (to be generous) people think that in an area with sidewalks and because it's just not relevant.

[scottious]

> they are often purchased to carry around their kids' friends as well

but it requires an adult to drive that SUV. Car culture has made it so kids don't have autonomy to move themselves around anymore. When I was 8 I used to be able to walk/bike around the neighborhood to see my friends. Then we moved to car-dependent suburbia and things were so much worse. Having to depend on adults to go places added a lot of friction. The end result is that we'd usually just spend a lot of time inside the house.

Just look at the dystopia we live in right now: some parents literally drive a Chevy Tahoe or equivalent SUV to school to drop their kids off. How many school-aged children can you fit into the blindspot of a car like that? Are we at all surprised that parents don't want their kids walking to school alone?

I literally have to tell my son to hold his breath as we bike by long lines of SUVs idling right next to a school

> People do what works for them within their budget, which often is a larger vehicle when you have kids

It's funny that I don't drive and I transport my 3 kids around almost exclusively by bike. Yet people who live in my neighborhood with kids insist that they need an SUV for all trips. (yes, I can afford any car if I wanted one).

I even organize bike trips so other parents can bring their kids to events by bike so we don't need to get cars involved.

I think we've fooled ourselves into thinking we need cars far more than we actually do.

Yes, there are dystopian places that are completely car-dependent and don't even have sidewalks, but even in places that aren't like that people still insist that they need cars for everything.

[bpt3]

> but it requires an adult to drive that SUV. Car culture has made it so kids don't have autonomy to move themselves around anymore. When I was 8 I used to be able to walk/bike around the neighborhood to see my friends. Then we moved to car-dependent suburbia and things were so much worse. Having to depend on adults to go places added a lot of friction. The end result is that we'd usually just spend a lot of time inside the house.

My kids can (and do) walk around our neighborhood. You chose to live somewhere that didn't support that and lament it, for reasons that are not clear to me.

We also drive our SUV when the number of passengers exceeds 5, which is not uncommon at all in our household. Occasionally, we drive it solo or with less than 5 passengers, because it makes sense to do so.

> Just look at the dystopia we live in right now: some parents literally drive a Chevy Tahoe or equivalent SUV to school to drop their kids off. How many school-aged children can you fit into the blindspot of a car like that? Are we at all surprised that parents don't want their kids walking to school alone?

Large vehicles are "dystopia"? There are plenty cruising around my town yet a kid has literally never been hit in the 20 years I've lived there.

And kids walk to school alone or in small groups on the sidewalks, with crossing guards protecting them at intersections.

> I literally have to tell my son to hold his breath as we bike by long lines of SUVs idling right next to a school

Okay. Are these cars all from the 1970s, before any modern emission standards were enacted?

> It's funny that I don't drive and I transport my 3 kids around almost exclusively by bike. Yet people who live in my neighborhood with kids insist that they need an SUV for all trips. (yes, I can afford any car if I wanted one).

Good for you. I have zero interest in spending an hour plus biking my kids to and from the grocery store, so we just drive and then play in our yard when we get back. Or we just walk if we have the time and interest.

> I even organize bike trips so other parents can bring their kids to events by bike so we don't need to get cars involved.

Sounds great. We have these too, without the irrational fear of cars included.

> I think we've fooled ourselves into thinking we need cars far more than we actually do.

"Need" is a relative term. I don't "need" indoor plumbing to survive, yet it's nice to have and most people would consider it a need (including my wife and kids).

I see no reason to reduce my standard of living by basically taking up cycling as an unpaid part time job. If you enjoy it or just feel like it's time well spent, again, good for you.

> Yes, there are dystopian places that are completely car-dependent and don't even have sidewalks, but even in places that aren't like that people still insist that they need cars for everything.

Again, using "dystopian" to describe a place that is car dependent is a pretty fringe view. It's not surprising that not many people agree.

[lotsofpulp]

>Oh good grief, parents with SUVs aren't that complex, and they are often purchased to carry around their kids' friends as well (negating your first point).

If the goal was to carry more people, a minivan would have been bought, as they are more spacious and comfortable.

An SUV's goal is to use up more space and have the passengers sit higher up, to project more "power" or "status".

[bpt3]

Nothing like a thread on vehicle preferences to rouse the extremely vocal and judgmental fuckcars crowd on here.

You may be shocked to hear this, but not all SUVs are less spacious than minivans and comfort is very subjective.

You have to define SUV to determine its goals. Most "SUVs" are basically cars that are slightly lifted and extended. The ones I assume you take most issue with are significantly larger than minivans, have 4WD (which is actually useful where I live), and also are seen as more luxurious.

I would say the primary goal, especially for parents, is occupant safety, which does come at the cost of the safety of others. Good luck convincing anyone to change with your attacks though.

[mountainb]

I own two SUVs because they are useful. Can't we be critical of ourselves and some of the consequences of our own choices?

[bpt3]

Yes, we can be critical of ourselves. I guess your description of SUV-drivers looking at pedestrians with disdain and buying a car with room for more passengers to intentionally exclude potential passengers is an accurate reflection of your own opinion?

As I said, I don't believe those are very widely held and they certainly don't reflect my thoughts, so my criticisms would be quite different.

[5upplied_demand]

The majority of the SUVs I see driving have exactly 1 person in them. It's ok to admit that.

We can also look at the facts, which do imply a more recent disregard (if not disdain) for pedestrians:

> Drivers hit and killed 3,304 people walking in the United States in the first half of 2024, down 2.6% from the year before but a staggering 48% above a decade ago, according to a new analysis from GHSA. [0]

[0] https://www.ghsa.org/news/early-2024-us-pedestrian-fatalitie...

[bpt3]

> The majority of the SUVs I see driving have exactly 1 person in them. It's ok to admit that.

I don't need to "admit" that, because I agree it's true.

In your rush to prove a point, you completely missed mine, which was: At least 99% of families buying SUVs to transport kids around instead of a car or minivan (which is why single occupant use didn't come up, as it wasn't really relevant) aren't intentionally firing a shot in an ideological war, they're just picking a car that works for them, they can afford, and they like.

Obviously a lot of that is subjective and has been shaped by regulation, marketing, and an interest in conformity with peers, but what will definitely not change anyone's mind is endless hostility over what is a generally benign decision.

[el_benhameen]

On the off chance you’re in the Bay Area, look into Walk N Roll: https://walknrolltoschool.org/

I helped start the chapter at my kids’ school and I’ve been impressed by the enthusiasm given how car-centric the school is (we’ve got the big SUV line, too).

Like you, we were usually one of two or sometimes three bike families. Walk N Roll days are now packed with bikes, and the bike population has increased substantially on regular days, too.

We’ve met some cool families, and the “goddamned big cars idling, you live three blocks away why don’t you just walk” grumbling in my head has quieted a bit.

[stuaxo]

A different experience here in London - when we are 10 minutes early there's a big load of kids waiting with their parents, most arrive on foot.

[tuna74]

What are the kids waiting for? Why are their parents there?

[cgsmith]

This is exactly how it was for me and my family when we lived in Wisconsin. We live in Germany now. Everyone walks to school or bikes - there is community.

[lotsofpulp]

The funny thing about that in the context of this thread is Wisconsin has a Total Fertility Rate of 1.7 and Germany has a TFR of 1.3.

[TheGRS]

I'm not a parent but where I live in Portland a big trend has been bike buses. A couple of parents ride with a group of kids to school, I see them often. That time before class started was always an awesome time where we'd talk about video games and trading cards and stuff, I'd be really disappointed not to see that.

[toephu2]

That's an example of a low-trust society.