[nickf]

A public CA checks it one-time, when it's being issued. Most/all mTLS use-cases don't do any checking of the client cert in any capacity. Worse still, some APIs (mainly for finance companies) require things like OV and EV, but of course they couldn't check the Subject DN if they wanted to.

If it's for auth, issue it yourself and don't rely on a third-party like a public CA.

[ge0rg]

A federated ecosystem of servers that need to verify each other based on their domain name as the identity is the prime use-case for a public CA to issue domain-verified client certificates. XMPP happens to be this ecosystem.

Rolling out a private PKI for XMPP, with a dedicated Root CA, would be a significant effort, essentially redoing all the hard work of LetsEncrypt, but without the major funding, thus ending up with an insecure solution.

We make use of the public CAs, that have been issuing TLS certificates based on domain validation, for quite a few years now, before the public TLS CAs have been subverted to become public HTTPS-only CAs by Google and the CA/Browser Forum.

[Avamander]

> Rolling out a private PKI for XMPP, with a dedicated Root CA, would be a significant effort

Rolling out a change that removes the EKU check would not be that much effort however.

[xg15]

That's exactly what prosody is doing, but it's a weird solution. Essentially, they're just ignoring the missing EKU flag and pretend it would be there, violating the spec.

It seems weird to first remove the flag and then tell everyone to update their servers to ignore the removal. Then why remove it in the first place?

[Avamander]

I think you're confusing different actors here. The change was made by the CA/B Forum, the recommendation is just how it is if you want to use a certificate not for the purposes intended.

[account42]

But it does mean that the CA/B requirement change has zero positive effect on security of anything and only causes pointless work and breakage.

Or to put it another way, the pragmatic response of the XMPP community shows that the effect of the change is not to remove the clientAuth capability from any certs but to effectively add it to all serverAuth certs no matter what the certificate says.

[Avamander]

Relying on an accidental feature and its removal causing work is a perfect example why it shouldn't be there in the first place.

The XMPP community can continue to adapt other infrastructure for their purposes and do the thing they do. It does not mean it has to be catered to.

[ge0rg]

Yes, this is what is happening. It isn't happening fast enough, so some implementations (especially servers that don't upgrade often enough, or running long-term-support OS flavors) will still be affected. This is the impact that the original article is warning about.

My point was that this is yet another change that makes TLS operations harder for non-Web use cases, with the "benefit" to the WebPKI being the removal of a hypothetical complexity, motivated by examples that indeed should have used a private PKI in the first place.

[xg15]

> A public CA checks it one-time, when it's being issued.

That's the same problem we have with server certs, and the general solution seems to be "shorter cert lifetimes".

> Worse still, some APIs (mainly for finance companies) require things like OV and EV, but of course they couldn't check the Subject DN if they wanted to.

Not an expert there, but isn't the point of EV that the CA verified the "real life entity" that requested the cert? So then it depends on what kind of access model the finance company was specifying for its API. "I don't care who is using my API as long as they are a company" is indeed a very stupid access model, but then I think the problem is deeper than just cert validation.

[account42]

> "I don't care who is using my API as long as they are a company" is indeed a very stupid access model, but then I think the problem is deeper than just cert validation

It's not stupid if you reframe it as "you can only use my API if you give me a cryptographically verifiable trace to your legal identity".

[xg15]

That's true if it worked, but I think there was the problem that EV names aren't always enough to trace back the legal entity? At least that's what I read, it might be wrong.

[bawolff]

> That's the same problem we have with server certs, and the general solution seems to be "shorter cert lifetimes".

No it isn't, and that's not the reason why cert lifetimes are getting smaller.

Cert lifetimes being smaller is to combat certs being stolen, not man in the middle attacks.

[nickf]

Not really, no. There are a number of reasons for cert lifetimes being made shorter.