[itay-maman]

Impressive results, but I keep coming back to a question: are there modes of thinking that fundamentally require something other than what current LLM architectures do?

Take critical thinking — genuinely questioning your own assumptions, noticing when a framing is wrong, deciding that the obvious approach to a problem is a dead end. Or creativity — not recombination of known patterns, but the kind of leap where you redefine the problem space itself. These feel like they involve something beyond "predict the next token really well, with a reasoning trace."

I'm not saying LLMs will never get there. But I wonder if getting there requires architectural or methodological changes we haven't seen yet, not just scaling what we have.

[jorl17]

When I first started coding with LLMs, I could show a bug to an LLM and it would start to bugfix it, and very quickly would fall down a path of "I've got it! This is it! No wait, the print command here isn't working because an electron beam was pointed at the computer".

Nowadays, I have often seen LLMs (Opus 4.5) give up on their original ideas and assumptions. Sometimes I tell them what I think the problem is, and they look at it, test it out, and decide I was wrong (and I was).

There are still times where they get stuck on an idea, but they are becoming increasingly rare.

Therefore, think that modern LLMs clearly are already able to question their assumptions and notice when framing is wrong. In fact, they've been invaluable to me in fixing complicated bugs in minutes instead of hours because of how much they tend to question many assumptions and throw out hypotheses. They've helped _me_ question some of my assumptions.

They're inconsistent, but they have been doing this. Even to my surprise.

[itay-maman]

agree on that and the speed is fantastic with them, and also that the dynamics of questioning the current session's assumptions has gotten way better.

yet - given an existing codebase (even not huge) they often won't suggest "we need to restructure this part differently to solve this bug". Instead they tend to push forward.

[jorl17]

You are right, agreed.

Having realized that, perhaps you are right that we may need a different architecture. Time will tell!

[breuleux]

> These feel like they involve something beyond "predict the next token really well, with a reasoning trace."

I don't think there's anything you can't do by "predicting the next token really well". It's an extremely powerful and extremely general mechanism. Saying there must be "something beyond that" is a bit like saying physical atoms can't be enough to implement thought and there must be something beyond the physical. It underestimates the nearly unlimited power of the paradigm.

Besides, what is the human brain if not a machine that generates "tokens" that the body propagates through nerves to produce physical actions? What else than a sequence of these tokens would a machine have to produce in response to its environment and memory?

[bopbopbop7]

> Besides, what is the human brain if not a machine that generates "tokens" that the body propagates through nerves to produce physical actions?

Ah yes, the brain is as simple as predicting the next token, you just cracked what neuroscientists couldn't for years.

[breuleux]

The point is that "predicting the next token" is such a general mechanism as to be meaningless. We say that LLMs are "just" predicting the next token, as if this somehow explained all there was to them. It doesn't, not any more than "the brain is made out of atoms" explains the brain, or "it's a list of lists" explains a Lisp program. It's a platitude.

[esafak]

It's not meaningless, it's a prediction task, and prediction is commonly held to be closely related if not synonymous with intelligence.

[breuleux]

In the case of LLMs, "prediction" is overselling it somewhat. They are token sequence generators. Calling these sequences "predictions" vaguely corresponds to our own intent with respect to training these machines, because we use the value of the next token as a signal to either reinforce or get away from the current behavior. But there's nothing intrinsic in the inference math that says they are predictors, and we typically run inference with a high enough temperature that we don't actually generate the max likelihood tokens anyway.

The whole terminology around these things is hopelessly confused.

[holoduke]

Well it's the prediction part that is complicated. How that works is a mystery. But even our LLMs are for a certain part a mystery.

[unshavedyak]

I mean.. i don't think that statement is far off. Much of what we do is entirely about predicting the world around us, no? Physics (where the ball will land) to emotional state of others based on our actions (theory of mind), we operate very heavily based on a predictive model of the world around us.

Couple that with all the automatic processes in our mind (filled in blanks that we didn't observe, yet will be convinced we did observe them), hormone states that drastically affect our thoughts and actions..

and the result? I'm not a big believer in our uniqueness or level of autonomy as so many think we have.

With that said i am in no way saying LLMs are even close to us, or are even remotely close to the right implementation to be close to us. The level of complexity in our "stack" alone dwarfs LLMs. I'm not even sure LLMs are up to a worms brain yet.

[crazygringo]

> Or creativity — not recombination of known patterns, but the kind of leap where you redefine the problem space itself.

Have you tried actually prompting this? It works.

They can give you lots of creative options about how to redefine a problem space, with potential pros and cons of different approaches, and then you can further prompt to investigate them more deeply, combine aspects, etc.

So many of the higher-level things people assume LLM's can't do, they can. But they don't do them "by default" because when someone asks for the solution to a particular problem, they're trained to by default just solve the problem the way it's presented. But you can just ask it to behave differently and it will.

If you want it to think critically and question all your assumptions, just ask it to. It will. What it can't do is read your mind about what type of response you're looking for. You have to prompt it. And if you want it to be super creative, you have to explicitly guide it in the creative direction you want.

[humanfromearth9]

You would be surprised about what the 4.5 models can already do in these ways of thinking. I think that one can unlock this power with the right set of prompts. It's impressive, truly. It has already understood so much, we just need to reap the fruits. I'm really looking forward to trying the new version.

[nomel]

New idea generation? Understanding of new/sparse/not-statistically-significant concepts in the context window? I think both being the same problem of not having runtime tuning. When we connect previously disparate concepts, like with a "eureka" moment, (as I experience it) a big ripple of relations form that deepens that understanding, right then. The entire concept of dynamically forming a deeper understanding from something new presented, from "playing out"/testing the ideas in your brain with little logic tests, comparisons, etc, doesn't seem to be possible. The test part does, but the runtime fine tuning, augmentation, or whatever it would be, does not.

In my experience, if you do present something in the context window that is sparse in the training, there's no depth to it at all, only what you tell it. And, it will always creep towards/revert to the nearest statistically significant answers, with claims of understanding and zero demonstration of that understanding.

And, I'm talking about relatives basic engineering type problems here.

[Davidzheng]

I think the only real problem left is having it automate its own post-training on the job so it can learn to adapt its weights to the specific task at hand. Plus maybe long term stability (so it can recover from "going crazy")

But I may easily be massively underestimating the difficulty. Though in any case I don't think it affects the timelines that much. (personal opinions obviously)

[squibonpig]

They're incredibly bad on philosophy, complete lack of understanding

[netdevphoenix]

> are there modes of thinking that fundamentally require something other than what current LLM architectures do?

Possibly. There are likely also modes of thinking that fundamentally require something other than what current humans do.

Better questions are: are there any kinds of human thinking that cannot be expressed in a "predict the next token" language? Is there any kind of human thinking that maps into token prediction pattern such that training a model for it would not be feasible regardless of training data and compute resources?

At the end of the day, the real world value is utility, some of their cognitive handicaps are likely addressable. Think of it like the evolution of flight by natural selection, flight is usefulness to make it worth it adapt the whole body to make flight not just possible but useful and efficient. Sleep falls in this category too imo.

We will likely see similar with AI. To compensate for some of their handicaps, we might adapt our processes or systems so the original problem can be solved automatically by the models.