[abalone]

You’re not summarizing the article fairly. She is saying the soiling mechanisms are environmentally dependent, not that there is no soiling in the desert. Again, it cites an efficiency hit of 50% in the ME. The article later notes that they’ve experimented with autonomous robots for daily panel cleaning, but it’s not a generally solved problem and it’s not true that “the wind takes care of it.”

And you still haven’t provided a source for your claim.

[Retric]

I’m saying the same thing she is, that soiling isn’t as severe in the desert not that it doesn’t exist.

The article itself said the maximum was 50% and it was significantly less of a problem in the desert. Even 50% still beats space by miles, that only increases per kWh cost by ~2c the need for batteries is still far more expensive.

So sure I could bring up other sources but I don’t want to get into a debate about the relative validity of sources etc because it just isn’t needed when the comparison point is solar on satellites.

[abalone]

You are again misquoting the article. She did not say soiling was "significantly less of a problem" in the desert. She in fact said it "requires you to clean them off every day or every other day or so" to prevent cement formation.

You claimed it was already a solved problem thanks to wind, which is false. You are unable to provide any source at all, not even a controversial one.

And that's just generation. Desert solar, energy storage and data center cooling at scale all remain massive engineering challenges that have not yet been generally solved. This is crucial to understand properly when comparing it to the engineering challenges of orbital computing.

[Retric]

Now you make me want to come up with a controversial source. The Martian rovers continued to operate at useful power level for decades without cleaning.

But but lack of water…

[Retric]

Anyway here’s some actual science on why going vertical makes a big difference.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11356-022-19171-5

[abalone]

Thank you for providing a source. That’s an early stage research paper, not the proven solution you originally implied. There are tons of early stage research papers on all these problems on earth and in space. Often we encounter a bunch of complications in applying them at scale such as dew-related cementation[1], which is a key reason why they haven’t been deployed at sufficient scale.

That you point to the Mars rover, a mission with extremely budgeted power requirements, as proof of how soiling doesn’t pose an impediment to mega scale desert solar farms, only underscores the flaw in your reasoning.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S22131...

[Retric]

“I don’t want to get into a debate about the relative validity of sources etc”

> Not the proven solution

Yet you quote a paper saying it can work. “This impact can have a positive or negative effect depending on the climatic conditions and the surface properties.”

I have no interest in debating with you because I don’t believe you are capable of a honest debate here. The physics doesn’t change and the physics is what matters.

> doesn’t pose an impediment

Nope. I said it beats “space” not that soiling doesn’t exist. That’s what you have to demonstrate here and you have provided zero evidence whatsoever supporting that viewpoint. Hell they could replace the entire array every 5 years and it would still beat space.. Even if what you said was completely true, you still lose the argument.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Shouldn't swarms of quadcopter drones zipping around the panels be able to handle that?

Wouldn't even need to be that 'autonomous', since the installation is fixed.

More like the things simulating fireworks with their LEDs in preprogrammed formation flight over a designated area.

[imtringued]

You don't need quadrocopters. Solar panels arranged in rows have rails that cleaning robots can drive on.

[kimixa]

Indeed, that seems unnecessarily complex for what is actually needed. I don't understand why the great grandparent comment seems to suggest it's an "unsolved" problem - as if grid-scale solar buildouts don't already have examples of things like motorized brushes on rails for exactly this already.

And it's always a numbers game - sure they're not /perfect/, but a few % efficiency loss is fine when it's competing against strapping every kilo of weight to tons of liquid hydrogen and oxygen and firing it into space. How much "extra" headroom to buffer those losses would that equivalent cost pay for?

And solar panels in space degrade over time too - between 1-5% per year depending on coatings/protections.