[hshdhdhj4444]

Animals do a whole bunch of things to other animals we wouldn’t consider acceptable.

Cannibalism, eating your young, rape, etc.

I’m not sure why killing for food is the one place we should choose to define our values and ethics based on what animals in the wild do.

[robcohen]

The problem I have with being vegetarian is that you can't prove that it's actually healthier, because the current state of dietary science is pretty poor.

Even if you could, you would also need to explain all of the evolutionary problems that could come from some humans going vegetarian while others don't.

What if being vegetarian makes you smaller and weaker physically (perhaps the case in some vegetarian countries now). If you had the answer, and it was clear a diet consisting of vegetables causes reduction in physical size, then I have to ask:

Would you want your kids to be shorter and physically weaker than you are?

[mmooss]

'What if' is pointless. What if vegetarianism makes you stronger than eating meat? What if it increases your IQ by 20 points or makes you live 200 years? What if you can code faster drinking rare pygmy tree sap or the blood of certain albino poison toads?

> you can't prove that it's actually healthier, because the current state of dietary science is pretty poor.

Almost every decision in life must be made without proof, but with evidence and judgment. We know a lot about nutrition, and a lot of evidence points toward health benefits in eating more vegetables and less meat. We can also see lots of vegetarians in our communities and they don't seem sickly or shorter, etc. - we also see elite athletes in public who are vegetarians.

> a diet consisting of vegetables

Vegetarianim is much more than vegetables; it's everything but meat - legumes (generally beans), vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts - plus eggs and cheese. Vegans cut out the latter two items.

> What if being vegetarian makes you smaller and weaker physically (perhaps the case in some vegetarian countries now).

Where?

> evolutionary problems that could come from some humans going vegetarian while others don't.

What problems? How does diet affect evolution? We'll lose our hunting muscles over the next 500,000 years? Remember humans haven't changed much biologically in 200,000+ years.

[robcohen]

India — 20-30% vegetarian — 167 cm avg male height

Taiwan — 12-13% vegetarian — 174 cm avg male height

Mexico — 10-19% vegetarian — 170 cm avg male height

Italy — ~10% vegetarian — 174 cm avg male height

Brazil — 8-14% vegetarian — 176 cm avg male height

UK — ~7% vegetarian — 178 cm avg male height

Australia — 5-6% vegetarian — 179 cm avg male height

Switzerland — 5-9% vegetarian — 179 cm avg male height

Austria — 5-9% vegetarian — 179 cm avg male height

Germany — 4-8% vegetarian — 180 cm avg male height

I mean, if you think height doesn't matter for men, I think you may want to think about it.

[mmooss]

We don't need uncited, selective data. It would be relatively easy to directly measure the relationship between vegetarianism and height.

Also, height is determined early in life. Many people become vegetarian in adulthood. Becoming vegetarian at 30 won't affect your height, I'm pretty sure.

[robcohen]

So you think the data is wrong?

[gruez]

>Would you want your kids to be shorter and physically weaker than you are?

As someone who eats meat, that's probably one of the worse arguments against vegetarianism/veganism I've heard. If eating animals is immoral, sure why not? If pillaging your neighbors makes your society better off, do you think a good objection to "maybe we shouldn't pillage our neighbors" is "Would you want your kids to be shorter and physically weaker than you are"?

[robcohen]

The logical entailment is eventually your lineage will be wiped out on some timescale if they cannot compete. I guess this argument in null and void if you believe violence is obsolete.

[CurrentB]

Do you want your kids to have colon cancer or heart disease because there is pretty strong evidence to suggest red meat contributes to these. And there's much stronger evidence for that than there is that suggests that vegetarian kids will be shorter and physically weaker (in fact I don't think there is much good evidence at all suggesting that).

Do you also have a problem with red meat?

[paprikanotfound]

This should be studied. People always come up with the exact same Nonsensical arguments against plant-based diets.

[card_zero]

Conversely, I'm not sure why we shouldn't limit our tender feelings to the individual animals we personally relate to. Values are based on other values, and equality is based on freedom of thought and the value of knowledge. Being kind to animals is about humans really, I think.