[Dr_Birdbrain]

My feeling is that AI-generated code is disposable code.

It’s great if you can quickly stand up a tool that scratches an itch for you, but there is minimal value in it for other people, and it probably doesn’t make sense to share it in a repo.

Other people could just quickly vibe-code something of equal quality.

[thewebguyd]

That's how I've been using and treating it, though I'm not primarily a developer. I work in ops, and LLMs write all sorts of disposable code for me. Primarily one-off scripts or little personal utilities. These don't get shared with anyone else, or put on github, etc. but have been incredibly helpful. SQL queries, some python to clean up or dig through some data sets, log files, etc. to spit out a quick result when something more robust or permanent isn't needed.

Plus, so far, LLMs seem better at writing code to do a thing over directly doing the thing, where it's more likely to hallucinate, especially when it comes to working with large CSV or Json files. "Re-order this CSV file to be in Alphabetical order by the Name field" will make up fake data, but "Write a python script to order the Name filed in this CSV to be alphabetical" will succeed.

[QuercusMax]

That's exactly my experience as well. AI will read only the first 100 lines of a file, decide that's good enough, and spit out a garbage result. But ask it to write a bash one-liner and it will work perfectly.

[knollimar]

I've had large successes in using it to draft electrical drawings faster (more a symptom of the tools I have now being mediocre)

[dwd]

Did a lot of contract development work nearly 20 years ago on a product called Solutions Electrical (1) that looks to still be around.

It crossed my mind recently whether a LLM would be able to meet all the various International standards and eat into that market.

(1) https://solutionselectricalsoftware.com/

[WorldMaker]

My growing (cynical) feeling is that AI-generated code is legacy-code-as-a-service. It is by nature trained on other people and company's legacy code. (There's the training set window which is always in the past. There's the economics question of which companies would ever volunteer to opt-in their best proprietary production code into training sets. Sure there are a few entirely open source companies, but those are still the exception and not the rule.) "Vibe code" is essentially delivered as Day Zero "Legacy Code" in the sense that the person who wrote that code is essentially no longer at the company (even if context windows get extended to incredibly huge sizes and you have great prompt preservation tools, eventually you no longer have the original context and not to mention that the Models themselves retrain and get upgraded every so many months are essentially "different people" each time. But most importantly the Models themselves can't tell you the motivating "how" or "why" of anything, at best maybe good specs documents and prompts do, but even that can be a gamble).

The article starts with a lot of words about how the meaning and nature of "tech debt" are going to change a lot as AI adoption increases and more vibe coding happens, but I think I disagree on what that change means. I don't AI reduces "tech debt". I don't think it is "deflationary" in any way. I think AI are going to gift us a world of tech debt "hyperinflation". When every application in a company is "legacy code" all you have is tech debt.

Having worked in companies with lots of legacy code, the thing you learn is that those apps are never as disposable as you want to believe. The sunk cost fallacy kicks in. (Generative AI Tokens are currently cheap, but cheap isn't free. Budgets still exist.) Various status quo fallacies kick in: "that's how the system has always worked", "we have to ensure every new version is backwards compatible with the old version", "we can't break anyone's existing process/workflow", "we can't require retraining", "we need 1:1 all the same features", and so forth.

You can't just "vibe code" something of equal quality if you can't even figure out what "equal quality" means. That's many the death of a legacy code "rewrite project". By the time you've figured out how every user uses it (including how many bugs are load-bearing features in someone's process) you have too many requirements to consider, not enough time or budget left, and eventually a mandate to quit and "not fix what isn't broken". (Except it was broken enough to start up a discovery process at least once, and may do so again when the next team thinks they can dream up a budget for it.)

Tech debt isn't going away and tech debt isn't getting eliminated. Tech Debt is getting baked into Day Zero of production operations. (Projects may be starting already "in hock to creditors". The article says "Dark Software Factory" but I read "Dark Software Pawn Shop".) Tech debt is potentially increasing at a faster than human scale of understanding it. I feel like Legacy Code skills are going to be in higher demand than ever. It is maybe going to be "deflationary" in cost for those jobs but only because the supply of Legacy Code projects will be so high and software developers will have a buffet to choose from.

[wordpad]

I don't see why AI would be able to help you solve all your legacy code problems.

It still struggles making changes to large code bases, but it doesn't have any problems explaining those code bases to you helping you research or troubleshoot functionality 10x faster, especially if you're knowledgable enough not to take it at its responses as gospel but willing to have the conversation. A simple layman prompt of "are you sure X does Y for Z reason? Then what about Q?" will quickly get to them bottom of any functionality. 1 million token context window is very capable if you manage that context window properly with high level information and not just your raw code base.

And once you understand the problem and required solution, AI won't have any problems producing high quality working code for you, be it in RUST or COBOL.

[WorldMaker]

Would not be able to help?

In my experience with Legacy Code projects the problem is very rarely "what is this code doing?" Some languages like VB6 (or even COBOL) are just full of very simple "what" answers. Obfuscation is rare and the language itself is easy to read. Reading the code with my own eyes gives me plenty of easy enough answers for the "what". LLMs can help with that, sure, but that's almost never the real skill in working with "legacy code".

The problem with working with legacy code, and where most of the hardest won skills are, is investigating the "how" and the "why" over the "what". I haven't seen LLMs be very successful at that. I haven't seen very many people including myself always be very successful at that. A lot of the "how" and the "why" becomes a mystery of the catacombs of ancient commit messages and mind reading seance with developers no longer around to question directly. "Why is this code doing what it is doing?" and "How did this code come to use this particular algorithm or data structure?" are frighteningly, deeply existential questions in almost any codebase, but especially as code falls into "legacy" modes of existence.

Some of that becomes actual physical archeology that LLMs can't even think to automate: the document you need is trapped in a binder in closet in a hallway that the company sealed up and forgot about for 30 years.

Usually the answers, especially these days, were never written down on anything truly permanent. There was a Trello board that no one bothered to archive when the project switched to Jira. Some of the # references seem to be to BitBucket Issues and Pull Requests numbers, was the project ever hosted on Bitbucket? No one archived that either. (This is an old CVS ID. I didn't even realize this project pre-dated git.) The original specs at the time of the MVP were a whiteboard and a pizza party. One of the former PMs preferred "hands on" micro-management and only ever communicated requirements changes in person to the lead dev in a one hour "coffee" meeting every Wednesday and sometimes the third Thursday of a month. The team believed in a physical Kanban board at the time and it was all Post-It Notes on the glass window in the conference room named "Cactus Joe". I heard from Paul who was on a different project at the time that Cathy's cube was right next to that window and though she was only an Executive Assistant at the time she moved a lot of those Post-It Notes around and might be able to tell you stories about what some of them said if you treat her to a nice lunch.

Software code is poetry written by people. The "what" is sometimes just the boring stuff like does every other line rhyme and are the right syllables stressed. The "how" and "why" are the stories that poetry was meant to tell, the reasons for it to exist, and the lessons it was meant to impart. Sometimes you can still even read some of that story in the names of variables and the allegories in its abstractions, when a person or two last shaped it, as you start to pick up their cultural references and build up an empathy for their thought processes ("mind reading", frighteningly literally).

That's also why I fear for LLMs only accelerating that process: a hallway with closets getting bricked up takes time and creates certain kinds of civic paperwork. (You'll discover it eventually, if only because the company will renovate again, eventually.) Whereas, a prompt file for a requirements change never getting saved anywhere is easy to do (and generally the default). That prompt file probably wasn't kicked up and down a change management process nor debated by an entire team in a conference room for days, human memory of it will be just as nonexistent as the file no one saved. LLMs aren't even always given the "how" or "why" as they are from top to bottom "what machines", that stuff likely isn't even in the lost prompts. If a team is smaller or using a "Dark Software Factory" is there even reason to document the "how" or "why" of a spec or a requirement?

In further generalization, with no human writing the poetry the allegories and cultural references disappear, the abstractions become just abstractions and not illuminating metaphors. LLMs are a blender of the poetry of many other people, there's no single mind to try to "read" meaning from. There's no clear thought process. There's no hope that a ranty monologue in a commit message unlocks the debate that explains why a thing was chosen despite the developer thinking it a bad idea. LLMs don't write ranty monologues about how the PM is an idiot and the users are fools and the regulatory agency is going to miss the obvious loophole until the inevitable class action suit. Most of those are concepts outside of the scope of an LLM "thought process" altogether.

The "what is this code doing" is the "easy" part, it is everything else that is hard, and it is everything else that matters more. But I know I'm cynical and you don't have to take my word for it that LLMs with "legacy code" mostly just speed up the already easy parts.

[jkhdigital]

This comment is quintessential HN poetry

[azeirah]

My friend, this is amazing, Thank you!