[arjie]

This is sad. I loved paying by palm at Whole Foods because it was definitely the fastest way to do things. You just scanned and you were out. Now I've got to slowly type in my phone number for Prime and then tap my watch and select the right credit card (palm scan always used my groceries card). Ah well, perhaps adoption was low.

[crazygringo]

I just scan the QR code from the Whole Foods app on my phone. Then tap the button to pay with the credit card linked to the account.

For security reasons, it makes sense that if you use your phone number rather than the QR code, of course you don't have the option to utilize the linked card.

Meant to register the palm thing but just never got around to it, wasn't even really sure how/where? That was the main blocker for me -- was never prompted to do it as part of checkout, and didn't want to waste time going over to customer service to ask how.

[alex_young]

I think “just” is doing a lot of work here.

  Steps I remember:
  1. Put down everything so you have 2 free hands. 
  2. Mention that it will take a minute to the cashier.  
  3. Unlock your phone.
  4. Find the Amazon app (this part is odd, you’re at Whole Foods).
  5. Dig around in the UI for the store code.  They move it around. 
  6. Present your phone to the cashier to scan.

[crazygringo]

1. I've already put down the groceries I was carrying, so the cashier can scan them. I have free hands.

2. The cashier is busy scanning, you don't need to mention anything.

3. FaceID unlocks it automatically.

4. What Amazon app? I use the Whole Foods app. I keep it easily accessible, I don't need to find it.

5. The code is always displayed by default when you open the app. You never have to dig around anything.

6. Or scan it yourself under the customer-facing scanner they have for that.

[llsf]

I get it, but you realize that the OP just waved one hand and was done (with paying, getting his discounts and points, etc.).

When we have to reach for the phone, unlock it (with biometric), tap to open the Whole Foods app, and then present the phone to scan a QR code.

While it might be not much more, it is more than just show one hand.

[thinkling]

The WF store I frequent has lousy cell reception, so add th step “open Settings app and get on store’s wifi” (and who knows what all that lets them track).

[clhodapp]

IMO the word "just" is probably the most loaded words in technical argument

[iamjake648]

It doesn't seem like a big deal, but this is just so much more annoying than using my palm that not only links my payment method but also prime membership.

Now I need to tap through a stupid app and scan a code.

We always stopped at whole foods on the way home from the gym, and I didn't always have my phone with me or readily accessible. This will definitely cause me to cut back on this quick stop in / impulse purchases.

[jzimbel]

If you have an iOS phone you can create a shortcut on your home screen that jumps directly to the code in the Amazon app. Whole Foods app may have the Shortcuts integration too, but I use the Amazon app.

The code both applies your Prime membership and links your preferred payment method.

[awakeasleep]

I believe it’s even quicker to ask Siri to open the Whole Foods app. You don’t need to touch anything and Face ID will unlock the phone while you’re talking.

[llsf]

But you all realize that the OP did not even have to reach for his phone. He just waved his hand to get his Prime discounts, pay and get his rewards.

I get that it is fairly easy to use the app on the phone (although my WF has terrible reception, which is frustrating enough when I come to pick up packages), but waving your hand would still be faster.

[awakeasleep]

Not every response in the entire comment page is directed at the OP

[criddell]

The Whole Foods we go to is in a cellular dead zone. So much time is wasted by people standing there waiting for their phone to load.

[crazygringo]

I've been bitten by that. I genuinely can't even guess why it needs internet to generate the code. Shouldn't it just be a TOTP-type thing?

[arjie]

Ah, perhaps I should try this Whole Foods app. The Amazon app is very slow and requires a good data connection to launch so it's mildly inconvenient when you've already reached checkout and it won't open for you to get the QR code.

The palm thing was never prompted as part of checkout, it's true. I just did it while I was being checked out once years ago since it seemed so cool and it worked flawlessly since then. Honestly, I found the UX of it really all well done. Even if it didn't make it in the long term, I hope the team knows there were a few happy users out here!

EDIT: I just installed the Whole Foods app and it opens directly to the QR code. That's nice. It also selects the appropriate payment method. There doesn't seem to be a watch equivalent so I'll have to pull my phone out, but this definitely reduces the terrible blow of losing the palm scan. I hope it works well without good Internet access!

[embedding-shape]

> Now I've got to slowly type in my phone number for Prime

Haven't the (big) supermarkets in the US adopted the whole "scan and go" thing that lots of countries in Europe have had for a long time? (maybe more than a decade at this point I think)

When I go to the supermarket, right after the entrance, I pick up a scanner, then as I pick stuff, I scan them and pack them. Then when I'm done, you scan a code, give back the scanner, take your stuff and leave. Kind of assumed this was done in the US first and then spread here, but maybe it started here? Not sure.

[gamblor956]

Kroger (Ralph's, etc.) allows you to do tap and pay, or to scan and pay (using a QR code in the app tied to your customer profile). These work at the regular cashiers and in self-checkout.

Home Depot has also allowed this for lower-value items for several years.

[IshKebab]

To be fair with scan & go you still have to scan your membership card which would be the equivalent of typing in your phone number.

But most retail tech in the US is suuuuper backwards. They were still signing credit card receipts until very recently. The way you pay for petrol/gas is bonkers.

[antonvs]

> The way you pay for petrol/gas is bonkers.

That needs to be past tense. At most gas stations now you can just tap your credit card and start pumping. Unless you’re in a state like New Jersey, which still has a law that an employee has to pump for you.

[embedding-shape]

> The way you pay for petrol/gas is bonkers.

Wait, what do you mean?

This is how it works for us: I go to the gas station, the pumps are locked by default, I await eye-contact with the person inside, wave at them, they unlock the pump, I pump the petrol, then I go in and pay.

I'm guessing it's radically different than that and involves signing papers somehow? Almost afraid to ask.

[FateOfNations]

Thankfully no signatures involved. You roll up, swipe/dip/tap your card in a reader on the gas pump, enter your postal code (archaic security measure from the pre-chip card era), wait a few moments for the electronic authorization (they pre-authorize an amount in the $75-150 range), then pump, and leave.

If you are paying cash, you generally have to go inside before pumping and prepay, and then go back inside afterwards to get your change, if applicable.

[wiml]

That used to be typical in the US as well. I think that when pay-at-the-pump became the norm (using a card), prepayment became expected even when paying with cash inside, at around the same time. I expect there are some gas stations here and there in the US that still operate the way you describe though.

An increasing number of gas stations are completely unattended though — the attached store might close overnight but the pumps are still usable.

[IshKebab]

I only did it once in America and this was some years ago so maybe it's changed... but basically you have to somehow pay in advance. How do you do that without knowing how much petrol you'll need? Very good question! If I recall I basically overpaid and they refunded me or something like that. Crazy.

[Dylan16807]

As an American, I always put my card into the pump itself and then fill up. No guessing, no change, no even going inside for a normal visit.

One time I went inside to buy a can to fill up, and I also paid upfront for a gallon, which made the pump cut off automatically.

I've never tried to pay for an unknown amount of gas with cash, and never felt any need to.

[pirates]

Despite others saying that they have never seen it, Meijer stores have this, except instead of a store scanner you use your phone with an app. There are other reasons too, but this is a big part of why my family shops at Meijer compared every other store near us.

[g947o]

scan & go is in most grocery stores but I almost never see anyone using it.

[alex_young]

Haha no. US commerce improvements tend to trail EU by a decade.

We just got tap to pay a couple of years ago. People still pass bits of paper with signatures on them to pay each other for stuff.

[expedition32]

As much as I complain about Google I use Google Pay for basically everything. I'm not even taking my wallet with me...

[embedding-shape]

> We just got tap to pay a couple of years ago

You mean NFC payments? :| Oh, and checks too? I guess things were very different than my assumption, interesting thing to have learned today. Thanks!

[zdragnar]

Paper checks aren't nearly so common for anything other than maybe a local tradesman or if you're renting from an individual. It's not uncommon to see high traffic places like gas stations refuse paper checks outright, or only accept them from local banks, as the onus is on the receiver if it doesn't clear.

NFC payments have been around for a bit but are only recently very widespread, COVID really pushed that forward.

The only notable big name holdout is Walmart. Somehow, they're still on either chip+pin or magnetic stripe cards only.

[selkin]

Walmart famously refuse to pay the extra couple of basis points that are charged by the various payment-rails-involved-entities when doing NFC payments instead of physical card.

[MiddleEndian]

We literally started rolling out chip-and-pin after tap-and-go was already rolled out in England (and presumably elsewhere). It made no fucking sense because it was obviously going to be replaced again, and chip-and-pin is a miserable experience. All it did was annoy everybody for several years.

[alex_young]

I mean the physical credit cards didn’t have tap to pay most of the time until very recently. NFC has been around for a long time.

[embedding-shape]

> I mean the physical credit cards didn’t have tap to pay most of the time until very recently

I think a couple of years before COVID hit most cards had it, but many stores didn't support it. But once COVID came and visited, all stores got new TPVs that could read NFC very quickly.

[bigstrat2003]

No, I've never seen that in the US.

[cpuguy83]

That does not exist in the US as far as I've seen.

There's Amazon's "just walk out" stuff, which they just killed.

[antgonzales]

Amazon, 1998: hello we sell books but online

Amazon, 2023: please return to your Primehouse for your nightly Primemeal, valued Primecitizen

- krang t. nelson

[add-sub-mul-div]

I tap a piece of plastic in two seconds and not only do I not have to give any tech giants my biometrics, they're not added as middleman in the transaction at all.

[i_love_retros]

Is it really that hard to take an credit card out your purse or wallet and tap it that you were happy to hand over biometric data to amazon?

[arjie]

Oh the alternative isn't taking a credit card out of my wallet and all that. It's scanning my Amazon Prime QR code and then tapping my watch after selecting the credit card. But it isn't "hard" per-se, just mildly inconvenient, and yes it doesn't take much inconvenience for me to volunteer my biometrics. Clearly that isn't sufficiently common a position or they wouldn't be removing it so your surprise is likely quite common as well.

[lxgr]

I find scanning QR codes at the POS hugely inconvenient compared to paying with my watch. The discount has to be substantial for me to ever scan them.

Retailer apps are often surprisingly (expectably?) bad at dealing with spotty/no connectivity, and even if they aren't, getting my phone out of my pocket, unlocking it, opening the right app, getting to the right screen in it (oh, did it just log me out?) etc. takes about 10x as long as arming my smartwatch in a convenient moment and tapping it once the terminal asks for it. It doesn't even require a free hand, since the range of mine is much better than that of passive contactless cards.

[arjie]

I like linking to the Amazon account because apart from the discounts (which are nice), it puts the receipt in my Amazon orders list. Yes, at Gus's there's no such linking feature or discount and I just tap my watch after selecting the appropriate card.

Amazon's app is just like what you describe. It is extraordinarily slow and needs a high-speed data network.

[i_love_retros]

Amazon prime is tied to your credit card. One single action to pay: tap credit card against reader

Why do you have so many hoops to jump through like presenting QR code and tapping watch

[arjie]

I would love that, but it doesn't seem to happen for me if I use the credit card that I have linked to my Amazon Prime membership as the payment method. When I tap it doesn't recognize my Prime membership. Do you have the Amazon Prime credit card perhaps?

The reason why I did the QR code and watch tap thing prior to the palm thing is that I didn't want to carry a single-use credit card.

I'd love the functionality you're talking about. Do you remember how you set it up to get that? Would love to have my grocery card automatically recognized as being linked to a Prime membership.

[kay_o]

Any card on your account should work, last 4 must match, I have never entered number or scan QR

[arjie]

Oh, then my watch should suffice. Okay, I shall try it next time with a Prime discounted product!

[falcor84]

It's another small source of friction. I don't know if biometrics are the solution, but I do find for example that I'm much more comfortable buying on a website I've used before and already has my card details, rather than giving them to a new website.

[kingstnap]

The useful data in that story is the eating and shopping habits collected by the transaction. What are they going to do with the arrangement of lines on your palm, likely stored as a compressed latent vector not useful for reconstruction?

[dyauspitr]

Like literally scan your palm? There’s no way that’s on device like a fingerprint reader on your iPhone either. You’re okay with just providing biometric data to a large corp like that. Makes me shudder.

[ceejayoz]

You wave your hand over a camera.

At this point I presume they collect such biometrics whether I like it or not; they have cameras everywhere.

[dyauspitr]

A grainy image of your palm from a surveillance camera capture is not going to expose biometric data. Your hand needs to be close enough to make out the detail required. Then tying that to your identity is very hard and takes manhours, not something you can replicate at scale. You’re giving them your palm print/vein scan tied to your identity on a plate. It’s very irresponsible.

[ceejayoz]

> A grainy image of your palm

I really doubt getting a reasonably good image of my hand is tough for Amazon. But they don't really need my palm at all; most of the point of that was probably that it'd be much freakier to normies if the self-checkout just said "hi Bob!" when you got close via facial recognition.

> Then tying that to your identity is very hard and takes manhours…

That seems deeply unlikely. I'm probably on 50 different cameras at a Whole Foods, some of which I'd never notice, and at some point I have to check out, which ties all that footage to a credit card and my Prime account if I don't want to pay the non-deal prices for everything.

[dyauspitr]

Faces are easier to change. Grow a beard, wear some glasses, put on some weight or some surgery if you really need to. Can’t change your eye print, finder prints, vein pattern or DNA.

[ceejayoz]

That's not really been the case for years now.

Apple's FaceID can figure out who you are even with a N95 mask and sunglasses on.

And in most scenarios, you're gonna a) pay with a card with your name on it and b) head out to your car with its unique ID prominently displayed on it.

[lxgr]

Isn't it a deep vein scanner? Much harder to spoof than still images or even video.

[kotaKat]

Nope, just a normal camera + a lot of infrared light.

Even modern fingerprint capture can be done with just a phone camera (but that’s also a feature of Amazon One’s enrollment process - you use your own phone to take photos of your palms, then they’re verified on the entry tower and matched up.)

[ceejayoz]

Hard to spoof. Not hard to collect.