[londons_explore]

> over 3 billion people to message securely each and every day.

Whatsapp is a chat application with 3 billion daily active users.

For those of you in the US (where Whatsapp is seldom used), this is a fact worth remembering.

If you want to build products for the rest of the world, you need to know how those users think and breathe - and for 3 billion of them, Whatsapp is how they talk.

[jraph]

What one should do about this? I mean, beside working on lowering that number.

(Asking as a European who quite stubbornly refuses to install it - there are dozens of us. Dozens!)

Edit: please don't participate in making WhatsApp even more inescapable as it is today.

[harikb]

As a developer, I tried building an app that needs to use Whatsapp for communication. Unfortunately my phone number got blocked by the second test message. No Spam. Not marketing, just a test message to my own number. Along with it, they blocked my entire business, my LLC, and anything tied to it.

I have been trying to get hold of anyone or anything at Whatsapp. I've spent 6 months trying to navigate the bureaucracy. Facebook support claims they can't touch WhatsApp; WhatsApp support ignores the Facebook side. If you're building on WA, have a backup plan.

If any Whatsapp employee reading this can look into my WBA Account 1117362643780814

[morpheuskafka]

The number is only checked at login, and after that you can now create a WebAuthn passkey (iCloud Keychain/Google Passwords synced to your next phone) for future sign-ins so it's actually only needed for first sign up. So just get a prepaid SIM or eSIM and make another account unless your business is so large that tons of people know your number.

[harikb]

Sorry I am confused. I have a "WhatsApp Business Account", tied to an "Business" (verifications all done). What I am talking about is registering a phone number that acts as the "Sender/Responder" of the messages from my customers. I am not trying to use WhatsApp from my phone manually, but have my app communicate with my customers programatically. Hope this is clear.

I can't do any of the above,

1. Requesting a new test number. Test numbers are placeholder 555 number that works only within WhatsApp test network. Can't get one.

2. Registering a new, real phone number (SIM obtained from a regular tele provider)

3. Disconnecting the WhatsApp product from the Facebook App to reset the integration.

Although the FB app is being used, I don't have any WhatsAppp users (because I have not even made the product), so wiping out any WBA accounts and starting fresh is also okay, if someone can do this.

[rvnx]

Telegram API is easier to handle as far as I know if that can somehow help (in case you want live ChatGPT or notifications for yourself in a mobile chat)

[duskwuff]

Telegram's bot API is a lot easier to get started with for sure. It's got some rough edges once you start trying to do anything more complex, though, and the underlying MTProto API is nothing short of bizarre.

I'd urge caution before using them as a component of your business, though. Their business strategy is pretty chaotic and has relied heavily on weird cryptocurrency-adjacent plays (e.g. TON / Fragment / gifts). They've made a couple of attempts to introduce business features, but I'm not sure they've had any substantial uptake.

[morpheuskafka]

Yeah, which is ironic given that it is not E2EE (unless specifically opted in for a private chat, and even then some would argue the MTProto crypto isn't good enough, although those people wouldn't trust WhatsApp ether). WhatsApp is overwhelming associated with legitimate (though in many countries, primarily overseas) users, and Telegram is somewhat associated with shady activities.

That said, Telegram is likely a lot more open for a business type that is legal but still regulated or illegal in some countries (legalized/unregulated substances, tobacco/e-cigarettes, adult content, etc.), probably less worried of random bans/demonetization.

Despite not being E2EE, Telegram also seems to have higher usage in censored countries (Russia and Iran etc). Once a Russian guy in Korea randomly asked if I had Telegram wanting me to take a picture for him since his phone was dead -- obviously had no idea that sounded like a massive scam flag to most Western users.

[harikb]

I will look into it. But my user base is either WhatsApp or plain SMS text messaging.

[yandie]

Yeah telegram is so easy to develop with - I was blown away. I was able to spin up a bot that checks for GE appointments with minimal effort.

[imtringued]

You're supposed to go to a local WhatsApp partner instead of contacting WhatsApp directly if you want to get API access for sending messages.

https://business.facebook.com/messaging/partner-showcase

[embedding-shape]

I guess if you want to lower that number, you'd need to build something better, in some way. Answered as another European who've had Whatsapp forever, as some stubborn people refuse to move away from it, and also bunch of businesses use it.

[01HNNWZ0MV43FF]

Network effect is killer. "better" would include having more than 3 billion people already on it.

Maybe the EU or China will crack down on it. A single company shouldn't decide who gets to talk to half the world. If that company is American they will not tolerate it for long.

Personally DeltaChat is my new favorite Thing but it falls afoul of Zooko's Triangle - A WhatsApp number or POTS number is short because it's centrally controlled and you have to pay for each one. DeltaChat has public keys, so I have 20 of them, and nobody can control who gets one, but they're incredibly long... the QR codes are nightmares.

[embedding-shape]

> Network effect is killer. "better" would include having more than 3 billion people already on it.

At one point people moved from something else to Whatsapp, and that happened before Whatsapp had 3 billion people on it. If it's good, early adopters will adopt it and want others to adopt it too, then it snowballs from there.

It has happened before, and as long as new regulation doesn't solidify Whatsapp/FB in their position, it can happen again :)

[riffraff]

WhatsApp happened at a time when, in Europe, you paid for SMS.

WhatsApp allowed people to send SMS without paying, or rather, paying just once to buy the app, so it was instantly valuable if you just convinced your spouse or parents or a single friend to install it.

To overcome it now, you need a lot more effort (or rely on enshittification, which I'm sure will happen).

[embedding-shape]

No, before Whatsapp, people were mostly using Facebook messages, at least where I lived at the time.

And no one was paying per SMS at the time we were using SMS for communication, almost everyone I know were on monthly plans that gave you N text messages and N minutes of calls for static sum each month.

The first people I saw who started using whatsapp, was people who were communicating across the border, because even if you had a monthly plan, those didn't include international messages. Eventually we all converged on whatsapp because that's what outside family and relatives used anyways.

[stavros]

The EU has already forced WhatsApp to be interoperable. Of course, Meta complied maliciously, making it a setting that you have to enable, but at least it's a start.

[embedding-shape]

I guess the bean counters figured it'd be cheaper compared to ultimately paying the fine they get for maliciously following the rules. Hope the fine ends up large enough to make them wrong :)

[londons_explore]

Make your customer support on whatsapp. "Drop us a message to change your order". Allow ordering/enquiries over whatsapp.

Send 2 factor verification pins over whatsapp - it is more reliable than SMS and generally there is a better 1:1 mapping between whatsapp accounts and real humans than phone numbers, so it is a good anti-spam or good way to distribute "first month free" type deals whilst keeping abuse low.

Obviously make sure all URL's have info cards properly rendered in Whatsapp for good share-ability.

[jraph]

And now your customers are required to agree to Meta's term of services and to run some black box software, and you are screwed if Meta decides your business or your customers need to be kicked out.

[mfashby]

Force interoperability one way or another. WhatsApp is a closed system, if I want to use an alternative I'm stuck with adversarial interoperability, so stuff like Beeper (which is great, but...) which might get my account banned. Or waiting for some legislation to force WhatsApp to open it's API and let me interact with my contacts there without being locked into their apps

[darrenf]

There is legislation in the EU, and BirdyChat announced compatibility.

https://www.birdy.chat/blog/first-to-interoperate-with-whats...

[jraph]

BirdyChat, the existence of which we all first became aware at the same time as that legislation and which nobody can use yet, only join a waitlist... :-)

[aaravchen]

And apparently requires explicit WhatsApp user opt-in to be available. Meta is of course going to maliciously comply as best they can, so they've made sure interoperability is off by default and requires a specific opt in.

[nextaccountic]

> What one should do about this? I mean, beside working on lowering that number.

Every business in Brazil has an whatsapp to talk to their clients. Sometimes this whatsapp goes into the phone or computer of a real human being. Other times, it's manned by a bot (usually a dumb choose-your-own-adventure bot - I don't see business using LLMs for this here)

Indeed I use food delivery apps (ifood here) only to check out the menu of delivery restaurants, then I search for them in Google so I can order directly from them through whatsapp. This won't work for some dark kitchens, but other than that it's pretty reliable and avoid the middleman

[tremon]

Advocate protocols over platforms. Have your government take an active interest in opening up closed communication systems and mandating third-party client access.

[morpheuskafka]

Well, you now have the right to use third-party apps to exchange messages with WhatsApp users, but apparently your law only covers it if the other user is in the EEA. So you are back to square one when communicating with India, Pakistan, and much of SE Asia, Africa, and MENA.

[galangalalgol]

Can you describe your reasons? I haven't developed an opinion as no one here uses it.

[jraph]

I refuse to use proprietary software as much as I can, especially when it has a strong network effect where it encourages others to join.

Meta is also a despicable company, they don't need my help to succeed.

(edit: and I haven't abandoned the idea to switch back to a Linux mobile OS at some point, and WhatsApp would be a pain)

[zikani_03]

Where I come from (Malawi, Africa), WhatsApp is so widespread that most people prefer it over email - to the extent that people don't really check their e-mails unless it's required for work or they are applying for something. For most people, WhatsApp is the de-facto communication channel.

I help moderate a community of developers and we hit the whatsapp group limit of 1024 members and sometimes have to wait for someone to leave (intentionally or accidentally) before we can add new members. We've tried to move people onto "better" platforms like Discord or Slack but we always end up coming back to WhatsApp which is subsidized via MNOs (mobile network operators) social media data/internet bundles and for the fact that most people are just stuck on whatsapp.

[atoav]

Yeah and we know it is over 3 billion because security researchers from the university of Vienna could read that in one go from one source ip address without encountering any rate limiting:

"phone number, public keys, timestamps, and, if set to public, about text and profile picture. From these data points, the researchers were able to extract additional information, which allowed them to infer a user's operating system, account age, as well as the number of linked companion devices."

See: https://www.univie.ac.at/en/news/press-room/press-releases/d...

[signal11]

In markets where Whatsapp is entrenched, it’s already begun to enshittify.

They have ads and spam already (sorry, no-consent messages from businesses). This isn’t even new. [0]

There’s a clear pattern, say “we’ve rolled out strict policies”[1] and then… nothing changes on the ground, and TechCrunch writes another “they’ve fixed it” article a year later.[2]

Also their Communities feature has pretty crap UX.

Yes WhatsApp’s pervasive. But if pervasive was the end of the story, we’d all be using ICQ and AOL. The last thing any country needs is to hand over more of their lives to Facebook [sic].

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2022/10/10/in-india-businesses-are-in...

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2024/11/20/whatsapp-will-finally-let-...

[2] https://techcrunch.com/2025/10/17/whatsapp-will-curb-the-num...

[moomoo11]

Sure, but like with most things, maybe like 200 million max of them in NA/EU would actually bring in real money.

[axegon_]

Honestly? That claim seems a bit(read A LOT) exaggerated. I haven't had whatsapp in a decade and none of my friends(scattered all over Europe) or family uses it. Viber used to be a big deal and to an extent still is in some areas of Europe. Personally I think I've talked almost everyone into migrating to Signal.

[conradludgate]

No one I know in the UK seriously uses signal. If I'm asking for a phone number from a neighbour it's going to be WhatsApp

[jsiepkes]

In the Netherlands Signal is getting traction. I talk to most people via Signal, about 85% of my messages are via Signal. Which includes my parents, and I didn't even put them on Signal.

[DANmode]

Yep.

Nontechnical uncle messaging me on Signal was a great signal that Signal was gaining some social traction.

[DANmode]

What part of the UK?

[Capricorn2481]

Doesn't this description describe Facebook itself? Should we make apps more like that as well? Because they could not be more polar opposite each other.