[LooseMarmoset]

> Unnecessary entanglements

The problems with systemd are:

  * that once it was adopted, every single package started requiring it
  * which meant that packages that previously could run everywhere, now could only run on systemd-based systems
  * binary logs - a solution that solved nothing but created problems 
  * which locked out any system that wasn't linux
  * which locked out any linux system that didn't want to use it
  * which led to abominations like systemd-resolved
  * "bUt yOu DoNt hAVe tO uSE it" - tell that to the remote attestation crowd, of which Poettering is a founding member of. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572 - soon you'll have to use systemD because nothing else *can* be used.

literally everything the systemD crowd has done leads to lockout and loss of choice. All ramrodded through by IBM/RedHat.

The systemD developers don't care about any of this, of course. They've got a long history of breaking user space and poor dev practices because they're systemD. I mean, their attitude was so bad they got one of their principal devs kicked from the kernel because they overloaded the use of the kernel boot parameter "debug", which flooded the console, and refused to modify the debug option to something compatible like "systemd.debug", broke literally every other system, and then told everybody else "hey we're not wrong, the rest of the world is wrong." And this has been their attitude since then.

Look, if people want to use systemD, that's just fine. But it is a fact that the entire development process for systemD is predicated on making Linux incompatible with anything else, which is an entire inversion of how Linux and Free Software works.

I actually like unit files. But if systemD was just an init system, it would stop there.

[direwolf20]

I don't like unit files very much. Instead of these variables that are specific to systems, and are ignored if you use a too old version of systemd, thus running your ftp server as root, you can prepend to the command line: sudo -u nobody ftpd. This composes much better and you can use the same commands that work in the shell.

[embedding-shape]

> * "bUt yOu DoNt hAVe tO uSE it" - tell that to the remote attestation crowd, of which Poettering is a founding member of. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572 - soon you'll have to use systemD because nothing else can be used.

You're saying that because the person who made systemd now work on hardware attestation, all Linux distributions will eventually require remote hardware attestation, where users don't actually have the keys?

Maybe I'm naive, maybe I trust my distribution too much (Arch btw), but I don't see that happening. Probably Ubuntu and some other more commercial OSes might, but we'll still have choices in what OS/distribution to use, so just "vote with your partitions" or whatever.

[LooseMarmoset]

If you build remote attestation into your product, corporate entities will require it. Just look at Android - What phones today give you unlimited root? If you have rooted, what applications have you broken? If you root, what e-fuses have you blown in your CPU meaning it can never be un-rooted? Android, at the start, was open and freely modified - not so much anymore. Companies like Google can and have cut off access to user's data, without recourse. You can't modify your phone, so you don't own your phone. You just pay rent until they don't support it anymore.

[embedding-shape]

I think phones are a completely different beast though (and already a lost cause), PCs seems a lot more resilient to that sort of lock down.

But on the other hand, you might be right, you never know how the future looks. But personally I'll wait until there is at least some signal that it's moving in that direction, before I start prepping for it to actually happening.

[LooseMarmoset]

Everything else has moved in that direction:

  * Literally every game console
  * Literally every smartphone
  * Microsoft, with their Win11 requirements, is moving there
  * John Deere (read on their own hardware attestation efforts to block DIY)
  * Car companies (require specialized tooling and software subscriptions to make certain repairs)
  * Anything that requires a signed bootloader and signed software updates
  * Snapdragon CPUs and e-fuses that burn when you use unsigned software, and brick
  * Apple hardware, literally crypto-signed so you can't use aftermarket parts
  * Google Chromecast
  * Amazon Kindle, locked hardware
  * IBM has locked hardware to their laptops for *years*. Ever try upgrading a wifi card in an IBM laptop? They're already invested in this

the list goes on...of course it's coming to PC.

[embedding-shape]

And Linux probably predates most/many of those things, yet remains open and without forced attestation. Why suddenly it's different today than all those years you reference?

[direwolf20]

Companies can make Linux variants that are tivoized, but it's not standardized. They have to put effort into it. Soon it'll just be systemctl --tivoize-me

[direwolf20]

They are a different beast because of the culture surrounding them — nothing technologically different. Lennart wants to bring that same culture to desktops.

[Khaine]

People have been saying this since day dot. It was very controversial for Debian to change to use systemd. The vote was close due to many arguments which are still being played out

[t43562]

In any such situation there's never going to be 100% acceptance by the losing side. Hence Devuan. Hooray - everyone gets a choice.