[alias_neo]

> Qimonda

Sorry for the tangent, I haven't heard this name in over 15 years, I interviewed with them the summer before the final year of my BEng, and was offered a job in China to allegedly built a real-time voice/video communications system between what they said were their three facilities in beautiful looking part of China I can't remember the name of now.

Looking through my Gmail, it was 2008 they offered my the position; and looking at the Wiki page, I'm glad I didn't take the offer, as it appears it didn't last much longer?

[joe_mamba]

Thanks for sharing. You know what's ironic about Qimonda? China bought their IP after they went under, and used it to build two domestic NAND and DRAM manufacturers that are set to become giants.

Funny how China has the vision to use, finance and monetize where western governments keep failing.

That's what hurts the most to see. EU says they want a strong domestic electronics industry, but with the exception of ASML, they really don't do nearly enough to grow it or even to maintain it.

[alias_neo]

It's certainly been interesting to watch over the span of my career so far.

It's really quite interesting thinking back to that time for me in University, every few years something happens that sparks a memory; right now, it's that roughly 2007-2008 my professor was telling me about this "rollable" screen technology that was going to enable rolling/folding phones at some point in the future; a little earlier he'd been telling me about this funky new thing called 'Organic LED' that was going to enable "printing" flexible circuits

He's an FREng (Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering) and was one of the people involved in the invention of the silicon chip.

Had a Gandalf look to him and was a real fountain of knowledge, I lucked out to get the guy as my professor.

[joe_mamba]

Yeah, there was a lot more mentorship in the industry back them.

[yomismoaqui]

Say what you want about China's monoparty system, but it enables planning that spans decades.

Our 4 years terms is short slighted by design.

[locknitpicker]

> Say what you want about China's monoparty system, but it enables planning that spans decades.

That's not a trait of a monoparty system, or even any totalitarian autocratic system. There are democratic multiparty systems which have plans that spans decades, and autocratic totalitarian regimes that barely put together a coherent multi-year project.

[joe_mamba]

I don't think this case has much to do with the mono party system but with the state taking interest to support a local industry at a loss but for future security.

Like for example the French government massively supported its aerospace and nuclear industry, and German government gave massive support to its legacy auto industry and they're not a mono party totalitarian system.

So it can be done even in democracies, but you need visionary leaders to spend money wisely on future industry bets and not just on buying votes from pensioners.

The big issue EU now has compared to the past when it kickstarted its nuclear and aerospace industry, is the massive burden of the welfare state that leaves little money for investments into other ventures, and boomers who are the largest beneficiaries of that welfare state, also account for the majority of the voter base, so the major EU economies France and Germany are stuck in a quagmire where the party who wins the elections is the one who goes more into debt for the welfare state.

[anal_reactor]

It's easy to blame the welfare state but IMO the problem is the general culture of being extremely risk-averse beyond reason. Same reason why big US companies lose the ability to innovate. Europeans just hate doing things the new way even if it's better.

[ako]

So bailing out large corporations is a good thing?

[Cyph0n]

Yes, but imo only if it’s done strategically and at a cost: if you want a bailout, you cede an ownership stake in return.

What I mean by the former is we shouldn’t, for example, be bailing out cruise lines.

[joe_mamba]

No it isn't a good thing, who said anything about bailing out failing companies?

[ccozan]

EU has 7 years planning interval. Is not bad and tends to overlap the usual 4 years legislature in member countries.

[newsclues]

Companies are on quarterly schedules.

Countries/cities/counties are often 4ish years.

XI has been the head of the CCP for 14 years

[locknitpicker]

Hungary's Orban has been in power for how long? 16 years and counting? Is Hungary a paragon of growth and strategic planning?

[joe_mamba]

>Is Hungary a paragon of growth and strategic planning?

Kinda, yeah. Foreign investors love doing business with dictators due to guaranteed stability versus the political pendulum swinging every 4 years.

HEnce why more manufacturing is opening in Hungary.

  BMW: Opened a new, fully electric vehicle plant in Debrecen in September 2025, with series production of the BMW iX3 starting in late October 2025.

  Mercedes-Benz: Announced expansion of its Kecskemét plant to start producing the A-Class model in 2026, further solidifying its presence in Hungary where it already manufactures other models. 

  BYD: The Chinese EV maker is building its first European production facility in Szeged, with operations set to begin by the end of 2025 or early 2026. The €4 billion plant will initially produce tens of thousands of vehicles annually, focusing on EVs for the European market. 

  CATL: The world's largest battery manufacturer is constructing a massive plant in Debrecen, expected to start production in early 2026. This supports Hungary's EV ecosystem, supplying batteries to automakers like BMW. 

  Flex (Flextronics): Inaugurated a new high-tech "NextGen" plant in Zalaegerszeg in November 2025, worth 35 billion HUF (about €90 million). It focuses on electronics and components for the automotive industry, creating 210 jobs in research and production.

[fancyfredbot]

I'm glad the EU isn't subsidising European DRAM and NAND. Those are typically very low margin business. It's unlikely the EU could have competed with China because of labour costs/rights.

Today we have a shortage in this sector and margins are good so it seems like a good idea. But it's likely a European company would have regularly lost money over the last 20 years and become an unpopular drain on EU finances.

[joe_mamba]

>Those are typically very low margin business. It's unlikely the EU could have competed with China because of labour costs/rights.

Well, you can apply this logic to a lot of other industries, like cars for example, they're also quite low margin products now when you ignore the stealership price gouging and artificail protectionism. The problem is if you just let all your manufacturing industry die out of greed and ship it aboard to cheaper labor, you're leaving yourself exposed to geopolitical rivals or even to allies who decide not be your allies anymore because they know they got you by the balls now and can squeeze concessions out of you. <flashbacks of EU's energy ties with Russia>

Then what do you do?

China is willing to play and loose the short game in order to win the long game, while EU is only focused on the short term gains while it's been slowly bleeding leverage and influence to rivals in critical sectors that you can't easily reshore back on a whim in case of another once-in-a-lifetime pandemic or "special military operation".

China's EV success didn't come out of nowhere, it just leveraged all the low margin electronics industry the west didn't want anymore and shipped to CHina, and look at their EV industry versus the EU one today.

Same with Taiwan's success in the semi industry. They started by manufacturing on the cheap dated processes acquired from Philips and RCA, and look at TSMC now.

We're not talking about outsourcing manufacturing of cheap clothes and sneakers here. DRAM, NAND and micro-electronics in general is quite an indispensable part of or modern civilisation and defense now, even without the AI bubble. The longer you ignore your domestic capabilities because the profits aren't as high as you want, the harder it's gonna bite you in the ass later when the shit hits the fan.

[fancyfredbot]

If we want to invest in independence then that's fine - let's not confuse it with nurturing a successful business.

I felt OP was suggesting that a European manufacturer would have flourished if properly supported by a visionary government, and I think that argument is mistaken.

You are arguing that globalised supply chains are risky, which is something I can agree with. If europe protects its DRAM manufacturer it is going to be less reliant on China but we should not confuse that with the European company flourishing. It seems likely such protection would be an expensive venture which absent any global conflict would produce more expensive products and make a loss while doing so.

[joe_mamba]

> If europe protects its DRAM manufacturer

I never argued for protectionism since Chinese DRAM makers and EV industry also didn't grow out of protectionism. On the contrary, they invited Tesla to build a EV factory in Shanghai without the usual 51% state ownership simply to light a fire under the asses of Chinese domestic EV makers on an even playing field with Tesla forcing them to innovate to Tesla's level or die.

I was arguing for positive state management like that, not protectionism. The kind of state management our aerospace industry had.

[accidentallfact]

It seems to me (and maybe I'm wrong), but it seems to me that "a lack of IP" increasingly means "we have no leverage to get the licences that we need" in China, and "we have no idea how they used to do it" in the west.

[direwolf20]

China doesn't need licences. They can just violate western IP law and make lots of money. As every country without a need to placate the IP industry does.

[joe_mamba]

You can't steal everything if you intend to export. That's why they bought Qimonda's IP portfolio, so they have valid licenses when they start to sell their products in the west and not get banned for IP theft, although I assume the US & allies will just ban them anyway for another dozen reasons out of protectionism.

[accidentallfact]

It isn't really "theft" when you know how to make something, but bullshit paperwork forces you to pretend otherwise.

[zeristor]

Same as it ever was.

China is going through the burgeoning phase previous countries have gone through. Although China’s scale is far larger, once there’s a couple of economic troughs things will be different.

[tietjens]

Can you name these two manufacturers?

[joe_mamba]

Yangtze Memory Technologies Corp. (YMTC) (NAND)

ChangXin Memory Technologies (CXMT) (DRAM)

[nagisa]

CXMT (dram) and YMTC (nand).