[water-data-dude]

But you're wrong. The memo says they can use an administrative warrant - which is to say, a warrant signed by an immigration official, part of the executive branch - to enter a house and arrest someone. The executive branch is authorizing an executive branch official to enter a home, bypassing the judicial branch.

The CRUCIAL thing to note is that ICE gets stuff wrong. Their info is often stale or flat wrong - so even though they say "this is only for illegal immigrants, don't worry about it ;)", it can ABSOLUTELY affect citizens.

Note also that, since it's ICE and immigration officials (again: all executive branch) making these determinations, the executive is also deciding whether there's probable cause to think that an illegal immigrant is in a particular house. This damage to due process is ostensibly only aimed at immigrants, but it affects all of us.

[mc32]

I see the issue raised with the process owner being all Executive --but on the other hand due process frequently inadvertently affects non-criminals (i.e. not all suspects are the guilty party in a given case; however many suspects go through a process where they are finally eliminated as a suspect --but that sometimes can carry on for many years as in the Ramsey case and people spend tens of thousand and millions while they are under suspicion (i.e. not cleared of wrongdoing). So due process doesn't guarantee an innocent person is not inadvertently "dragged though mud".

[water-data-dude]

I don't think it's valid to deflect by saying "well, due process isn't perfect" - no one ever said it was. But due process is there to protect you from arbitrary persecution, and it's much better to have it than to not have it.

[bigbadfeline]

> people spend tens of thousand and millions while they are under suspicion (i.e. not cleared of wrongdoing)

You managed to hit the nail on the proverbial head... "not cleared of wrongdoing" means "guilty until proven innocent" and turns the promise of the justice system on its head - spending millions to prove innocence is just a mundane consequence of that perversion.

> So due process doesn't guarantee an innocent person is not inadvertently "dragged though mud".

And, not quite accidentally, it allows to drug anyone though mud regardless of guilt - both purposefully or inadvertently.

I've said this before but the type of argument you use is quite common and it boils down to the following fallacy: If something is already happening somewhere, sometimes - it's the right thing to do everywhere and all the time.

The fact that the government can excuse and routinely do something while getting away with it doesn't mean that the getting away or the action itself are right or justified.

The discussion here is about the compatibility of government's actions with the spirit of the Constitution which doesn't provide an exemption for habituated wrongs.

[mc32]

Authorities have to conduct investigations. Their voters demand that as part of a civilized society those deputized to keep the peace pursue and solve violations to the public order. Since investigators can't consult a magic ball, their investigations will necessarily involve people who are later cleared. One can attempt the ideal, knowing the ideal is not attainable and that reality is messy. It's a balance. It's not perfect. Some innocent people get caught up in the messy parts.

[intermerda]

> Some innocent people get caught up in the messy parts.

What's the number of innocents you're willing to sacrifice to get the outcome you desire? Would you be okay if you or your loved ones are caught up in the messy parts?

Are you willing to spend 37 days in jail to solve violations of public order like this person did? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/dec/18/tennessee-ch.... Would you be willing to go further and undergo torture and bodily harm?

[collingreen]

Which is why there are rules, due process, and a strong bias toward not killing people without evidence.

I don't think it's out of reach to not murder people then lie about it to make them looks like they somehow deserved it.

Implying this is an ok way to serve the "demands" of a "civilized society" is pretty disgusting.

[bigbadfeline]

> Authorities have to conduct investigations.

There's more than one way to do that, some a lot better than the current practice which, as of now, involves shooting suspects in the head.

> Since investigators can't consult a magic ball

That's what the shooting perpetrators claim too - "we weren't sure if this woman was going to try to wipe us all out, we've got no magic ball, thus, head meet bullet seemed like a reasonable thing to do... repeatedly".

> One can attempt the ideal

There's no evidence that anything close to that has been attempted since at least 2001.

> It's a balance.

It's not. Nobody's punished, no consequences for errors, not even a hint of admission - replaced by blame the victim in the worst crimes imaginary - before looking at the evidence and without even consulting a dictionary to see what the words mean.

[collingreen]

Only aimed at [illegal] immigrants...

1. With no regard for citizens caught along the way, including outright lies and accusations of terrorism when masked agents murder citizens on camera

2. For now