[marcosdumay]

The problem of modern libc (newer than ~2004, I have no idea what that 1996 one is doing) isn't that old software stops working. It's that you can't compile software on your up to date desktop and have it run on your "security updates only" server. Or your clients "couple of years out of date" computers.

And that doesn't require using newer functionality.

[AshamedCaptain]

But this is not "backwards compatibility". No one promises this type of "forward compatibility" that you are asking for . Even win32 only does it exceptionally... maybe today you can still build a win10 binary with a win11 toolchain, but you cannot build a win98 binary with it for sure.

And this has nothing to do with 1996, or 2004 glibc at all. In fact, glibc makes this otherwise impossible task actually possible: you can force to link with older symbols, but that solves only a fraction of the problem of what you're trying to achieve. Statically linking / musl does not solve this either. At some point musl is going to use a newer syscall, or any other newer feature, and you're broke again.

Also, what is so hard about building your software in your "security updates only" server? Or a chroot of it at least ? As I was saying below, I have a Debian 2006-ish chroot for this purpose....

[renehsz]

> maybe today you can still build a win10 binary with a win11 toolchain, but you cannot build a win98 binary with it for sure.

In my experience, that's not quite accurate. I'm working on a GUI program that targets Windows NT 4.0, built using a Win11 toolchain. With a few tweaks here and there, it works flawlessly. Microsoft goes to great lengths to keep system DLLs and the CRT forward- and backward-compatible. It's even possible to get libc++ working: https://building.enlyze.com/posts/targeting-25-years-of-wind...

[AshamedCaptain]

What does "a Win11 toolchain" mean here? In the article you link, the guy is filling missing functions, rewriting the runtime, and overall doing even more work than what I need to do to build binaries on a Linux system from 2026 that would work on a Linux from the 90s : a simple chroot. Even building gcc is a walk in the park compared to reimplementing OS threading functions...

[marcosdumay]

Windows dlls are forward compatible in that sense. If you use the Linux kernel directly, it is forward compatible in that sense. And, of course, there is no issue at all with statically linked code.

The problem is with the Linux dynamic linking, and the idea that you must not statically link the glibc code. And you can circumvent it by freezing your glibc abstraction interface, so that if you need to add another function, you do so by making another library entirely. But I don't know if musl does that.

[AshamedCaptain]

> Windows dlls are forward compatible in that sense.

If you want to go to such level, ELF is also forward compatible in that sense.

This is completely irrelevant, because what the developer is going to see is the binaries he builts in XP SP3 no longer work in XP SP2 because of a link error: the _statically linked_ runtime is going to call symbols that are not in XP SP2 DLLs (e.g. the DecodePointer debacle).

> If you use the Linux kernel directly, it is forward compatible in that sense.

Or not, because there will be a note in the ELF headers with the minimum kernel version required, which is going to be set to a recent version even if you do not use any newer feature. (unless you play with the toolchain) (PE has similar field too, leading to the "not a valid win32 executable" messages).

> And, of course, there is no issue at all with statically linked code.

I would say statically linked code is precisely the root of all these problems.

In addition to bring more problems of its own. E.g. games that dynamically link with SDL can be patched to have any other SDL version, including one with bugfixes for X support, audio, etc. Games that statically link with SDL? Sorry..

> And you can circumvent it by freezing your glibc abstraction interface, so that if you need to add another function, you do so by making another library entirely. But I don't know if musl does that.

Funnily, I think that is exactly the same as the solution I'm proposing for this conundrum: just (dynamically) link with the older glibc ! Voila: your binary now works with glibc from 1996 and glibc from 2026.

Frankly, glibc is already the project with the best binary compatibility of the entire Linux desktop , if not the only one with a binary compatibility story at all . The kernel is _not_ better in this regard (e.g. /dev/dsp).

[marcosdumay]

If you use only features available on the older version, for sure, you can compile your software in Win-7 and have it run in Win-2000. Without following any special procedure.

I know, I've done that.

> just (dynamically) link with the older glibc!

Except that the older glibc is unmaintained and very hard to get a hold of and use. If you solve that, yeah, it's the same.

[AshamedCaptain]

> If you use only features available on the older version, for sure, you can compile your software in Win-7 and have it run in Win-2000. Without following any special procedure.

No, you can't. When you use 7-era toolchain (e.g. VS 2012) it sets the minimum client version in PE header to Vista, not XP much less 2k.

If you use VC++6 in 7, then yes, you can; but that's not really that different from me using a Debian Etch chroot to build.

Even within XP era this happens, since there are VS versions that target XP _SP2_ and produce binaries that are not compatible with XP _SP1_. That's the "DecodePointer" debacle I was mentioning. _Even_ if you do not use any "SP2" feature (as few as they are), the runtime (the statically linked part; not MSVCRT) is going to call DecodePointer, so even the smallest hello world will catastrophically fail in older win32 version.

Just Google around for hundreds of confused developers.

> Except that the older glibc is unmaintained and very hard to get a hold of and use.

"unmaintained" is another way of saying "frozen" or "security updates only" I guess. But ... hard to get a hold of ? You are literally running it on your the "security updates only" server that you wanted to target in the first place!

[CSm1n]

> No, you can't. When you use 7-era toolchain (e.g. VS 2012) it sets the minimum client version in PE header to Vista, not XP much less 2k.

Yes, you can! There are even multiple Windows 10 era toolchains that officially support XP. VS 2017 was the last release that could build XP binaries.

[saagarjha]

This kind of compatibility is available on, of all systems, macOS.