[discarded1023]

At the risk of telling you what you already know and/or did not mean to say: not everything can be a value. If everything is a value then no computation (reduction) is possible. Why? Because computation stops at values. This is traditional programming language/lambda calculus nomenclature and dogma. See Plotkin's classic work on PCF (~ 1975) for instance; Winskel's semantics text (~ 1990) is more approachable.

Things of course become a lot more fun with concurrency.

Now if you want a language where all the data thingies are immutable values and effects are somewhat tamed but types aren't too fancy etc. try looking at Milner's classic Standard ML (late 1970s, effectively frozen in 1997). It has all you dream of and more.

In any case keep having fun and don't get too bogged in syntax.

[bayesnet]

IMHO this is both unnecessarily pedantic and not really quite right. Let’s say we accept the premise that “everything is a value” means reduction is impossible. But a value is just the result of reducing a term until it is irreducible (a normal form). So if there is no reduction there can’t really be values either—there is just “prose” (syntax) and you might as well read a book.

[doug-moen]

I am unable to extract any meaning from your post. You appear to be making a general claim: it is impossible to design a programming language where everything is a value. You at least admit that "data thingies" can be values. Are you claiming that it is not possible for functions to be values? (If we assume that the argument and the result of a function call is a value, then this would mean higher order functions are impossible, for example.) If not that, then what? Please give a specific example of something that can never be a value in any programming language that I care to design.

[gf000]

I think parent means it from a lambda calculus perspective. If you only have values at an AST level, then you only have a tree of.. values, like an XML document.

You can apply meaning to a particular shape of that tree which could be executed, but then you basically just added another layer before you parse your AST that becomes executable.

[jcparkyn]

Thanks, some interesting reading there that I will check out (I wasn't aware of PCF). Perhaps I should've used more precise wording: "All types are value types".

> Standard ML [...] It has all you dream of and more

The main thing here that's missing in Standard ML (and most other functional languages) is the "mutable" part of "mutable value semantics" - i.e., the ability to modify variables in-place (even nested parts of complex structures) without affecting copies. This is different from "shadowing" a binding with a different value, since it works in loops etc.

[throwaway17_17]

Quick note then a more wordy response (and after being dinged in another thread yesterday, the tl;dr is your usage is correct, ignore purposely avoiding context criticism of wording):

SML has mutation, but only for Ref Cells, which humorously are values themselves. Not that’s what you’re really talking about here.

Now for the wordy part…

As another of your sibling commenters said GP was being incredibly pedantic. While his reference to Plotkin/Winskel and the PCF thread of research is formative, it is of particular note for Structural Operational Semantics.

The real issue GP is raising that in programming language semantics there are two distinct ways in which the term ‘value’ is used. Worse still is that the terms are not just distinct but are broadly from two very distinct fields in PLT. So, what are the two uses:

  1) when the domain of discourse is Operational Semantics of Programming Languages, a ‘value’ is a term in the formal abstract syntax of the language which is not subject to reduction via any other transition defined over the syntax;

  2) when the domain of discourse is the Evaluation and Default Kinds of arguments passed to functions and the semantic implications of those defaults, a ‘value’ is defined in the negative as those semantic objects which ARE NOT references [1];

which from the definitions alone, it is clear your designation of your language as ‘pass-by-value’ is a distinct thing from GP’s usage of the term.

While GP’s usage of ‘value’ is in line with a long standing tradition, that tradition is firmly within the academic/functional programming language syntax and semantics sphere. Your usage, as is PLAINLY APPARENT from context, is absolutely correct and in line with long standing usage within discussion (and academic work) on imperative (and otherwise non-functional) programming language semantics. So keep phrasing discussions about Herd using the ‘pass-by-value’ and ‘everything is a value’. It’s not only contextually correct and historically justified, it is utterly within the ‘vernacular’ of normal programming language discussions.

One last thought, your language’s adoption of totally defaulting to passing arguments (to functions, threads, basically any control construct), with copy-on-write being an optimization only, should make implementing a non-reified linearity qualifier on types relatively simple to implement, that would address some of the locking anti-optimizations and address some of your static analysis that you mentioned where not working 100%.

———————

1: Reference here include Rust/C++ style lightly abstracted references, nearly zero abstraction pointers, and then the references as discussed when talking about Python, Ruby, JavaScript, C++ smart pointers, Rust’s higher level abstractions over references, etc which are a very abstract concept of reference.

[DemocracyFTW2]

Excuse me if I didn't get it right, but as a practical example, I'd assume that I can rewrite every program into JavaScript using the usual control structures and, beyond that, nothing but string values (which are immutable). Simple arithmetic would already be kind of a chore but can be done. (Input and output already happens only via serialized values (cf also webworkers) so there's that; for convenience use TypedArrays wrapped in classes that shield you from immutability). It is not obvious to me where `a = '[1,2]'; a1 = JSON.stringify( JSON.parse( a ).push( 3 ) ) );` is fundamentally different from just pushing a value to a copy of `a`. Also, you could write `a1 = a.slice(0,-1) + '3]'` which only uses non-mutating stuff under the hood.