[pandaman]

Can't talk for all Red states, but in Austin, TX the city police is arresting even people who try to interfere with traffic, even more so people who interfere with federal agents so there is a little chance someone reads reddit, figures there is nothing going to happen if he or she lays hands on a fed and get lit. Now, I've seen quite a few of videos from Minneapolis and there were literally 0 MPD officers in any of those. I wonder where is the police in the blue states, definitely not on the streets where riots are going on.

[cthalupa]

I feel like calling protests that are overwhelmingly peaceful riots tells me everything I need to know about the chances of this conversation being productive. Framing the language in a way that intrinsically devalues the fundamental first amendment right to assembly and speech puts all of this into a very obviously biased conversation.

Some of the George Floyd protests devolved into riots. That is not what is happening in MN, or TX, or anywhere. Police or federal officers using riot dispersal techniques against a protest does not suddenly make the protest a riot.

ICE and CBP do not have the remit to behave like they are doing in these situations either - they do not have the same powers as local law enforcement. Yet we see them issuing unlawful commands - like telling Good to get out of her vehicle. They explicitly are not allowed to force a US citizen out of their car. Pretti was shot after the weapon he had never brandished or gone for was removed from his person while he has a multitude of CBP agents dogpiling him. (We could also talk how that shot was insanely dangerous and stupid for the CBP officer to begin with, even if there had been a threat - he very easily could have shot his fellow officers.)

It doesn't matter if MPD is there. If they're absent, this doesn't suddenly give ICE and CBP the authority to police in a way that they are explicitly not allowed to do. This doesn't give them the right to shoot people when they are not actually in danger.

Fundamentally, I do not understand why you think anything in your comment is a rebuttal to the point being made. I don't understand why you think it is even relevant to the discussion at all.

[pandaman]

>Police or federal officers using riot dispersal techniques against a protest does not suddenly make the protest a riot.

I agree. Assaulting police or federal officers, harassing citizens and blocking traffic does though, and the police acts on that, not just randomly gassing people because Trump.

>ICE and CBP do not have the remit to behave like they are doing in these situations either - they do not have the same powers as local law enforcement.

Yes, they have different powers yet they employ sworn officers and those can arrest people who they believe are committing crimes in front of them.

>They explicitly are not allowed to force a US citizen out of their car.

Need a source for that, it's news to me.

>It doesn't matter if MPD is there.

It does though. Even in LA the mayor was not as dumb as to order LAPD to stand down and as the result zero people got shot by feds during more massive riots than in Minneapolis. Local police is more lenient and less likely to use deadly force even when met with violence, you'd imagine if mayor had any compassion for his constituents he'd sent the police to deal with them rather than leave it to feds.

[cthalupa]

> I agree. Assaulting police or federal officers, harassing citizens and blocking traffic does though, and the police acts on that, not just randomly gassing people because Trump.

The first of the things in this list has a very large gap with the rest. I have seen zero evidence there is any sort of widescale assault on police or federal officers with these protests. Some isolated incidents, yes, but isolated incidents are not riots.

Harassing citizens does not make something a riot. Blocking traffic does not make something a riot.

They might not be protected by the 1A (Well, depending on what you mean by 'harassing citizens' it very well might be, that's a very broad term) but that isn't the same thing as a riot.

> Yes, they have different powers yet they employ sworn officers and those can arrest people who they believe are committing crimes in front of them.

They can arrest people for committing federal crimes in front of them or with reasonable suspicion of a felony having occurred. This is different from what they are doing

> Need a source for that, it's news to me.

Some lawyers/law professors discussing this.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1196194852659037 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyoBDxPeMfg

> It does though. Even in LA the mayor was not as dumb as to order LAPD to stand down and as the result zero people got shot by feds during more massive riots than in Minneapolis. Local police is more lenient and less likely to use deadly force even when met with violence, you'd imagine if mayor had any compassion for his constituents he'd sent the police to deal with them rather than leave it to feds.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that if cops aren't around then it's the fault of anyone but CBP/ICE when CBP/ICE fuck up. Which is a weird abdication of personal responsibility.

> Local police is more lenient and less likely to use deadly force even when met with violence,

In particular here, I'd say it's not a matter of leniency - local police undergo training at a policy academy and a supervised training period when they enter the job. In combination this can result in years of training. They also have background checks done. Most large departments also employ some form (or even multiple forms) of psychological screening. They have ongoing re-training and re-certification around all sorts of topics including de-escalation and dealing with the public.

And police still fuck it up fairly regularly. Meanwhile, ICE has 47 days of training (the number chosen, of course, because Trump is president #47...) and no-to-minimal background and psychological screening. Police are less likely to use violent force because we have attempted to select for people that will not use it unnecessarily and also provided extensive training to them on when and when not to use it.

For example, even if you believe lethal force is justified in a situation like Good's, the immediate consequences show that it was the incorrect choice for the stated claim - after she was shot in the head, the vehicle accelerated at a far greater speed and with no human control over it. Many departments now train their officers to not be in front of vehicles like this because they know that not only does it unnecessarily increase the risk to the officer, but that in a situation like this one they do not have recourse to stop it from happening - shooting the driver of a car that is right in front of you does not decrease your chances of getting run over even if they are intending to do so (and by no means do I think it is likely that Good ever intended to do so), and if they are not actively attempting to run you over, can even increase it.

[pandaman]

> I have seen zero evidence there is any sort of widescale assault on police or federal officers with these protests.

It depends on your scale, in the both cases of shootings though the victims assaulted an officer before they had been shot. It's on video and in case you deny that - look up the definition of assault as a criminal act.

>Harassing citizens does not make something a riot. Blocking traffic does not make something a riot.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/riot

>Some lawyers/law professors discussing this.

Don't have Facebook but in the Youtube video some dude literally says "unless they have some type of a reason to detain you" at 0:50. You said "They explicitly are not allowed to force a US citizen out of their car.", if it was so there had been some statue saying that they are not allowed to force a US citizen out of their car, this is what explicitly means. Not some dude on youtbue saying they cannot arrest you unless they have a reason to arrest you, duh.

>Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that if cops aren't around then it's the fault of anyone but CBP/ICE when CBP/ICE fuck up.

Nope. My entire argument is that if cops were around they would have prevented people from the law school of reddit and Youtube from committing crimes against armed officers and getting killed in the process.

[cthalupa]

> It depends on your scale, in the both cases of shootings though the victims assaulted an officer before they had been shot. It's on video and in case you deny that - look up the definition of assault as a criminal act.

Good never touches the officer with her car. This is clearly the case from the close up video, and every single claim I have seen otherwise relies on a heavily compressed low resolution video taken from significant distance away. His cell phone video does not provide any evidence of him being hit, and there has been no actual evidence or documentation provided that he received any medical treatment. Conversely, we do see him walking around without any obvious issue for some time after the shooting. The medical examiner also determined that it was the 2nd or 3rd shot that killed her - the shots that went through the driver window where he was indisputably no longer in the path of the vehicle when he fired. Lethal force is not allowed to be a punitive act of revenge, it is to protect the safety of the officer and others. We can't argue that it was for the safety of anyone else, because as we saw in the video, killing her sent the vehicle even more out of control.

For Pretti, it is not cut and dry as to whether there is anything worthy of assault. His actions all seem purely defensive and more about stabilizing himself, etc., to me than anything else, but we have seen cases where I do not understand how a jury of my peers could find the actions of the defendant to be assault, so I won't rule it out. But none of that changes the fact that the firearm that he was legally carrying and had never brandished nor made a move to handle during the event had already been removed from his person when he was shot and killed while having a multitude of CBP officers on top of him.

Either way, are you claiming that these occurrences were riots? Come on. It is incredibly clear from all of the videos in both cases that these conflicts were not riots by any stretch of the imagination. What are we even doing in this conversation?

> Don't have Facebook but in the Youtube video some dude literally says "unless they have some type of a reason to detain you" at 0:50. You said "They explicitly are not allowed to force a US citizen out of their car.", if it was so there had been some statue saying that they are not allowed to force a US citizen out of their car, this is what explicitly means. Not some dude on youtbue saying they cannot arrest you unless they have a reason to arrest you, duh.

The second link has a lawyer going into more detail about what those reasons are and the legal justifications around them. I will concede I could have worded my statement more explicitly, but my point is that there was no cause for them to ask Good to get out of her vehicle. Recording videos, protesting, etc., are not reasonable cause to start detaining people and pulling them out of their vehicles,

"Some dude on youtube" makes it sound like this is just a random video and not a clip of a news anchor interviewing a law professor. There's a reason people are saying you're arguing in bad faith.

> Nope. My entire argument is that if cops were around they would have prevented people from the law school of reddit and Youtube from committing crimes against armed officers and getting killed in the process.

Committing a crime is not immediate justification for being shot. We have due process and a multi-tiered legal system for a reason.

Why are you holding everyday people to higher standards than law enforcement? Arming them and giving them the legal right to use lethal force when necessary as part of their daily jobs comes with the expectation that they will do so with prudence. Even if Good and Pretti were not acting fully within the bounds of the law, that does not in and of itself justify or mitigate the actions of CBP and ICE here.

[pandaman]

>Good never touches the officer with her car.

Okay, there is nothing left to discuss.

[matwood]

> riots

You going to tell us J6 was a peaceful tour group next?

[tombert]

Oh, well if you saw like four videos on YouTube or TikTok I guess that's sufficient evidence for me.

[pandaman]

Please go ahead and present your evidence, show where is the police interacting with the "protesters" in Minneapolis.

[tombert]

I don't have a Tiktok account so I don't really have a means to search that, and it's tough to find stuff on YouTube because the recent murder is (understandably) hogging the headlines and the top searches, and I cannot be bothered doing more than a cursory search considering I don't really think you're arguing in good faith anyway. Regardless, I don't really think this is the slam dunk that you seem to think it is. You "not seeing MPD interact with protestors" is hardly strong evidence of anything.

But let's pretend you're right, MPD is completely absent, it doesn't forgive anything ICE has done, actually. It is disingenuous to act like it does.

[pandaman]

So you yourself have not seen MPD yet first accused me of only seeing four videos and then accuse me of arguing in bad faith (I don't even know what that would mean in this context, you believe I've seen MPD in the four videos I have seen but lie about it?). Good talk.

[tombert]

I pulled the number "four" out of my ass, sorry if that wasn't clear. I was trying to say that if you saw some videos that don't have MPD then that's hardly very compelling evidence of anything.

The "bad faith" part is that it's really not relevant. I made a comment about ICE murdering civilians and you diverted to some tangent about MPD that doesn't actually detract from my original point. Because it's not relevant, I don't think it was brought up in good faith.

[jmye]

"I've proposed a hypothetical situation based off evidence I won't provide and now I'm going to demand sources refuting it because you said 4 TikTok videos is basically subjective bullshit" is just... not how honest discussion works. Come on.

[pandaman]

What do you expect, me presenting the videos with no police in Minneapolis? These are pretty popular on this site. I can show you some from APD dealing with rioters:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pHpFAAzWhTY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enpt8TewBwU

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0yUAZRnPURs

[jmye]

No, I was expecting you to engage with some degree of intellectual honesty in the first place. The complaint was clearly and unequivocally not that you didn't present "evidence".