[0xDEAFBEAD]

"You're either very stupid believing that the American Engagement in Europe was just charity or just a very good troll."

Europeans always imply that NATO is some sort of vast American conspiracy. But they are hardly ever able to give compelling examples of American benefit. The US benefit from NATO always remains a sort of esoteric wisdom which is mysteriously beyond the grasp of the average American. I suppose if we were more educated on European geography trivia, like you guys, that might help us understand why the US needs NATO so badly.

"Vietnam"

Yes, that was seen as analogous to another very recent war in Korea. If it wasn't for us, the state known as "North Korea" would cover the entire peninsula.

"Iraq"

One of the worst dictators in history, that Saddam Hussein. Europeans laughed at us for our opposition to him. It's why we now have little interest in opposing Putin, who is a herbivore by comparison.

"Afghanistan"

Depending on who you ask, we are either imperialists for displacing the Taliban, or complicit for allowing them to displace us right back. Typical double-bind.

"Iran"

You mean the country which is at this very moment crying out for American intervention, asking the Americans to protect protesters? It's fascinating to me how certain Europeans can simultaneously beg the US for protection, and also assume that the US must be up to no good in other countries where the US gets begged for protection.

Hopefully you can see why I support Massie's bill to withdraw the US from NATO at this point. I'm tired of it all. I want a Swiss foreign policy for the US. Do you also support Massie's bill? Maybe that's something we can agree on.

[hermanzegerman]

It seems that you have great difficulties with reading comprehension. I was mentioning Iran (Pre-Mullahs) where the UK and US overthrew a democratically elected president because of Oil. Leading to the current theocratic and oppressive government.

Also your reasons to invade Iraq were made up Lies about Weapons of Mass destruction, and the US propped up the Taliban against the Soviets in the first place.

Both were quite liberal states compared to today, after they were blessed with US intervention

[0xDEAFBEAD]

Classic double bind. If we support the Taliban, we are evil for "propping it up". If we oppose it, we are evil for "destabilizing it". The implication is that everything would magically be fine and dandy if it weren't for the US. Of course, your critique does not engage much with the actual reasoning or decision-making process of the US in Afghanistan (or Iraq for that matter). But caricaturing the US as an evil empire was the point, after all.

I think your narratives are oversimplified or inaccurate, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

The important point is: Since US intervention is so bad, according to you, can you understand why I want to withdraw from NATO? Can we at least agree on that? Don't you want to save your continent from the evil US intervention such as all the billions we've sent as support to Ukraine?

[hermanzegerman]

If you wouldn't have propped them up in the first place against the Soviets you wouldn't need to fight them afterwards...

[0xDEAFBEAD]

Why do you think we propped them up against the Soviets? Oh yeah, it was an effort to bring down the Soviet Union so Germany could be reunified, hermanzegerman. Arguably, a rather successful effort. And a huge mistake in retrospect. Germany should've stayed divided. Berlin Wall should've stayed in place. Not our problem. We unified Germany and got 9/11 as thanks.

See why I want out of NATO? The Swiss stay perfectly neutral, they never had a 9/11, everyone loves them. No one blames them for the situation in Ukraine (they contribute little) or anything else. That's what the US was like pre-WW1 with regard to Europe. I want to go back.