[creeble]

Almost all of the reports from people I know who have done ayahuasca have reported seeing "elves". It's not only common, they say it's not a "valid" trip unless you do, and even converse with them.

Though I don't know any reports of profound conversations.

[Klonoar]

The idea that there is one “valid” trip is essentially gatekeeping and should be pushed back on whenever it comes up. It leads to one of the more unhealthy sides of the psychedelic experience - nobody should feel that they have to continually chase something that’s not happening for them.

Like, I know at least two people who’ve done it in group settings with people who saw “elves” and they themselves didn’t see any.

“Valid” as a descriptor is probably best replaced with “average”.

[temp0826]

Fwiw having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times, I've never seen elves (have seen plenty of other weird stuff though). Only times have been with breakthrough doses of smoked dmt. I guarantee it doesn't make it any less/more valid. There are so many more profound things to see, I don't know why people get so hung up on elves lol (if you ever experience meeting the medicine of a master plant/tree spirt during a traditional dieta you'd be flabbergasted).

[tasty_freeze]

> having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times

I have some earnest questions, and please take it in that spirit, though I realize these might easily be interpreted as being negative.

To disclose, I've done LSD probably 15 times and 4-ACO-DMT three or four times. I haven't done it in years and I'm OK if I never do them again. LSD no longer hits the same way it used to such that the unpleasant parts now far outweigh the good parts.

Getting back to my questions, I've been under the understanding that ayahuasca can be punishing (vomiting, scary trips) but people often find it was worth it due to the insights they gain in the process. After the first handful of trips, are you still finding out new things? Are you so familiar with the terrifying aspects that they are no longer terrifying? Or are you lucky that the good aspects are still worth the price of admission? Is the driver for you insights or just the novel experiences which arise?

My wife's therapist went on an ayahuasca retreat and said it was like going through a wringer emotionally but it was really worth it. It had me wondering if maybe I should try it. A year later the therapist did it again and said it was like going through a ringer every night for four nights and she got nothing from it. :-(

[temp0826]

I'm a bit of a different case, have been volunteering/working at retreat centers in Peru and Mexico for the last 6 years (and am somewhat of an apprentice in a particular tradition).

There are tough parts physically sure, you mostly get used to those parts, sometimes I'll have long stretches of not vomiting and sometimes it'll be every (or multiple times per) ceremony.

As far as "finding out new things", we often use this analogy of layers of an onion (of which you tend to cry more with each layer coming off :)). Breaks between sessions to integrate are needed- after a retreat you might find that some of your baselines have shifted, and you need to find your new normal (or make changes in your life to break out of the old patterns you didn't realize you were stuck in because it was just normal/programmed and not a choice previously). After you've adjusted/integrated other things may begin to surface that were just overshadowed by the energies you've cleaned up before. (A good shaman has cleaned themself to the point that their own energies no longer dominate their vision, and they can "see" outside themselves to diagnose/heal others). Anyways sometimes the physical side effects are just too much for some people and it's understandably not the modality for them...if you spend your ceremonies being entirely consumed by those effects, you can still make progress drinking with a good shaman (though it might be a few ceremonies before you get your head above water).

I still get surprised (especially with master plant diets). Ayahuasca isn't addictive but I think for some of us there is an intellectual addiction to it. The scary ones are the ones I look forward to now :).

I'm very biased but I'd only recommend doing retreats that offer master plant diets in a traditional Shipibo context if you're looking to make lasting changes. The master plants (adjunct plants taken alongside ayahuasca) offer a whole other dimension that ayahuasca alone doesn't even scratch the surface of. A weekend retreat in someone's garage might be ok for a "tuneup" or to see where you're at once in a while, but it's not the place for deep work or for someone new imo (and you risk opening a box that you won't have time to wrap your head around).

[itronitron]

Some friends of mine in college were sitting in a cave, tripping, when a group of actual little people (not elves) walked past them.

The universe finds a way...

[randomtoast]

I have done ayahuasca and many people report seeing something like this: http://pbmo.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/machine-elf-2.jpg I can say from my personal experience, that this is only one possible "hallucination" although quite common.

> it's not a "valid" trip unless you do You can definitely have a life-changing experience without encountering machine elves.

[smt88]

Feels like now that I've seen it, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy

[vjvjvjvjghv]

I didn’t see elves but I saw a dark jungle with a big cat’s reflective eyes looking at me. Kind of cool.

[nine_k]

Can't help but remember this wonderful story: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...