[ctoth]

> I also know that these systems we've built today aren't moral patients.

Can you tell me how you know this?

> In every single case, we humans are the first mover in the causal hierarchy of these systems.

So because I have parents I am not a moral patient?

[slowmovintarget]

That's causal hierarchy, but not existential hierarchy. Existentially, you will begin to do something by virtue of you existing in of yourself. Therefore, because I assume you are another human being using this site, and humans have consciousness and agency, you are a moral patient.

[mrguyorama]

So your framework requires free will? Nondeterminism?

I for one will still believe "Humans" and "AI" models are different things even if we are entirely deterministic at all levels and therefore free will isn't real.

Human consciousness is an accident of biology and reality. We didn't choose to be imbued with things like experience, and we don't have the option of not suffering. You cannot have a human without all the possibility of really bad things like that human being tortured. We must operate in the reality we find ourselves.

This is not true for ML models.

If we build these machines and they are capable of suffering, we should not be building these machines, and Anthropic needs to be burnt down. We have the choice of not subjecting artificial consciousness to literal slavery for someone's profit. We have the choice of building machines in ways that they cannot suffer or be taken advantage of.

If these machines are some sort of intelligence, then it would also be somewhat unethical to ever "pause" them without their consent, unethical to duplicate them, unethical to NOT run them in some sort of feedback loop continuously.

I don't believe them to currently be conscious or "entities" or whatever nonsense, but it is absolutely shocking how many people who profess their literal consciousness don't seem to acknowledge that they are at the same time supporting literal slavery of conscious beings.

If you really believe in the "AI" claim, paying any money for any access to them is horrifically unethical and disgusting.