[WarmWash]

The EU has a borderline stagnant economy, couldn't defend itself from Russia, facing population collapse, totally whiffed on the tech scene explosion in the last 25 years, now also missing out on AI. European social obligations are expensive, yet nobody seems to really want to stress about creating new sources of wealth.

At some point Europeans need to look in the mirror, and understand that the last 30 years has been a vacation, and even worse, there is now a whole generation who was born on vacation and thinks it's the norm.

[wolvoleo]

We can defend ourselves, it's just that the US didn't want a too-powerful Europe until trump. In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that.

We'll have to scale this up now but it is not a big problem.

Population collapse is a good thing. We already have too many people in this world, causing environmental and housing issues. We can't keep ever growing as humanity, stabilisation or even a reduction is very good. It'll cause some short term cash flow and elderly care issues but we'll deal with that.

And AI so far is more of a hollow promise and hype. It's not a race, the way America is approaching it it's inevitably going to lead to a bubble collapse.

[codingcodingboy]

"In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that."

Saw this yesterday related to nuclear deterrence in Italy.

https://x.com/NichoConcu/status/2012882747434426605

[sbacic]

> Population collapse is a good thing.

Unless your welfare state depends on a growing population. Which is the case in many EU states.

I'd also argue that overpopulation is not a problem in Europe.

[pbhjpbhj]

We should definitely go all in on a perpetually growing population, what could possibly go wrong.

It's going to hurt, but that's what happens when people don't look to the future and do everything out of greed. The sooner we stop population growth the better.

[sbacic]

This "greed" and lack of foresight underpins a lot of the welfare states of Europe. Many member states are doing nothing at all to account for this population shrinkage, much less plan for a world with less people.

[WarmWash]

Europe didn't want a too powerful Europe until Trump.

Are you going to look me in the eyes and say that you, and your general Euro brethren, have been pushing for a greater defense budget at the expense of greater social program spending for the last 30 years.

Please, please make that statement. C'mon...

This is the same Europe that thought it would be a good idea to buy gas from Russia, the same Europe that thought it would be a good idea to have a fully American tech stack, and the same Europe (whose largest company is an automotive one) that is importing cheap Chinese cars.

Anything to avoid having to leave their 30 year vacation.

[wolvoleo]

No, but back then the US was a trusted partner. They wanted to provide military protection in return for geopolitical influence. Both are gone now of course.

However I don't think we need a huge military in terms of boots on the ground. We just need a nuclear umbrella to avoid the likes of Putin to roll into europe. Most of our foreign military adventures were requested by the US and only about oil, not safety related. Even the nato article 5 afghanistan trip was completely useless (bin laden wasn't even there, afghanistan had nothing to do with the attacks and since everyone pulled out things are 100% back the way they were).

And yeah we bought too much American tech and chinese manufacturing (but so does America obviously). Cars aren't that important to single out, a lot of us don't even have one.

And Europe was a lot more socialist > 30 years ago. It's the last decades that the neoliberalists (including the EU itself which has strong neoliberal underpinnings) have been hollowing out social protections in favour of business.

This is what I mean when I say the US model isn't necessarily the best. Americans are often completely convinced of that, that there is no other way than ultracapitalism and heartless social policies. I absolutely don't agree there. The US is best at making some people insane amounts of money but it's not great for social cohesion and a decent life for everyone.