[matesz]

My Dear German friends, please accept that EU-inc is a massive boost for EU competitiveness. Continuing to block progress here only proves that the EU is good at making promises on paper but fails to deliver real change.

The reason this "28th regime" actually works—and bypasses the previous vetos — is that it’s optional. It doesn’t try to force Germany to change its local GmbH laws or kill the notary system overnight. Instead, it creates a parallel, voluntary path. Berlin doesn't have to give up its red tape for local shops, but they have to let a "Unified European Company" exist alongside them.

If we let national pride or local bureaucracy stop this again, we are essentially telling our best founders to leave for the US. Let’s stop protecting red tape and start protecting our future.

[lava_pidgeon]

This idea was made by French and German government . I'm not sure why do you think the German government is against it.

[matesz]

> This idea was made by French and German government

It is true, but lets face it - it is just a high-level proposal. Better than previous ones for sure, but still just a proposal.

And there is a massive gap between the PR and the legal reality. Germany and Austria already torpedoed the previous attempt (the SUP) specifically because it allowed online formation without a notary.

So I would advise against certainty in that the fight is over. I also don't want to wait another 10 years. Honestly by that time just setup topco in UK and if series A will come just do the flip later if you don't want to go to SV straight away.

[ronsor]

Reading this thread, I do not get Germany's worship of notaries and notarizations.

[rcbdev]

> Reading this thread, I do not get Germany's worship of notaries and notarizations.

No-one here worships them, they're just an obscenely rich entrenched institution running a racket as the gate keepers of certain notarized acts and doing anything in their power to lobby against innovation.

I could also ask you why U.S.-Americans worship a horribly broken school system or love lacking consumer and privacy protections. The answer is simple, it's not worship.

[ronsor]

I assure you American politicians and lobbyists do worship those malign traits.

[moooo99]

What I find funny is that in Germany, you can only buy a house with a notary to prevent shady things (reasonable), but up until 2023, you could literally buy the entire thing with cash, without having to provide any proof of the origin of the funds.

[WilcoKruijer]

Isn't the notary there to take note of the shadiness of buying in cash and, if shady enough, abolish the transfer?

[M2Ys4U]

The last time pan-European private companies (SPEs) were seriously proposed (2008) opposition from the German government blocked the proposals, the idea limped along until finally being ditched in 2014 after disputes in the European Parliament about worker representation on boards.

SPEs were supposed to follow on from SEs (public companies, introduced in 2004) and SCEs (cooperative societies, introduced in 2006).

[inanothertime]

National sovereignty is not national pride. Paying company taxes to the 28th regime evicts tax contributions to the company's home nation. Massive German tax money is already today used for non-national interests. EU-inc makes this only worse.

[prasoon2211]

This is incorrect. Taxes, pensions and labour laws apply according to the country where the EU Inc is operating.

[matesz]

I don't understand the tax objection. The 28th regime changes corporate law, not fiscal law. A Berlin-based "EU-Inc" still pays full taxes (Körperschaftsteuer, Gewerbesteuer, etc.) to the local Finanzamt. It isn't a disembodied tax haven - it just standardizes the legal wrapper.

You are right that this threatens the status quo, though. If this works, founders based in Germany will likely abandon the GmbH. That will require swallowing some national pride and admitting that the current system is simply a less efficient, less competitive legal form for high-growth companies.

One thing I think is also worth mentioning are labor rights. I am not arguing against the German model of employee protection. Mitbestimmung could be viewed as a good thing, even if it will mean less power to the VC and / or founders. And frankly, I don't care if the consensus forces strict, German-style Mitbestimmung on the EU-Inc. Stricter form of EU-INC is still vastly better than nothing at all.

Asianometry has a great video on the labor rights in germany btw - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0teMtLT9XI).

[jcattle]

National sovereignty in Europe is not possible without international collaboration.

[tietjens]

> Massive German tax money is already today used for non-national interests.

Please elaborate. You're complaining that DE tax funds go to the EU? Very curious what you're talking about and your rational.

[miroljub]

> You're complaining that DE tax funds go to the EU? Very curious what you're talking about and your rational.

Germany is the biggest net contributor to the EU. The money comes from German taxpayers, who receive disproportionately little value in return.

[jorge-d]

This is wrong on so many levels. The German economy profits _a lot_ from the membership. You can't just look at the monetary in/out flows to/from EU accounts but to the system as a whole.

[pegasus]

That sounds an awful lot like the Trump whining about being taking advantage of while bullying countries around the world to do his bidding.

[cael450]

This is the same argument Trump is using to blow up America's position in NATO.

[direwolf20]

Maybe they're talking about the protection of Israel

[sevenzero]

It's one of the idiotic "our tax money is spent for bicycle lanes in foreign countries" mindsets many right wingers share in Germany.

[miroljub]

Just because you accusse people to be "right wingers" because they don't want to fund bicycle lanes in foreign countries doesn't make them wrong.

If you want to fund bicycle lanes in foreign countries, go start a fund an fund them privately.

For the people that don't know the topic:

- yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries

- it's not the only waste of money going to foreign countries

And additional questions:

- since when is it forbidden to complain against the waste of tax money?

- how does favouring tax cuts instead of tax money waste makes you a "right wing"?

[lifty]

I agree with your characterisation of what is going on, and at some point, the EU states will have to decide for full fiscal integration or for removing the common currency. You can't have a common currency without a common fiscal union. So we either have to integrate more or desintegrate more, this inbetween we have now is not working very well. Speaking as a European, not sure what is better.

[miroljub]

Not related to the comment, but in general I agree with you.

You can't have a single monetary system without complete unification, including tax systems, budgeting systems, governance models, retirement systems, benefits. I mean, you can, like we have now, but it's not sustainable, and eventually we all have it worse.

As a European, I would not want to go that way, since I'm afraid such a unified EU will be a bureaucratic monster that is even more centralized than the USA, and way more autocratic than any current EU state.

I'd rather take a step back, dissolve much of the EU's competences, and go back to pure trade union, dissolve the EURO as a currency, and let every member state take sovereign decisions on their own.

[tchalla]

>> For the people that don't know the topic:

>> - yes, German taxpayers are indeed funding bicycle lanes in foreign countries

Just for people to know this, we are talking about 44Mn€ (20Mn€ + 24Mn€) of money in Peru as the commentator mentions below. It is wasteful but it has practically no effect on Germany. There are 1000x things that Germany does within Germany that moves the needle more than the talking about this rounding error. But that requires introspection and ownership of responsibility - both alien to the country’s normal compliance attitude of working.

[harperlee]

Funding other member states to be able to grow may be labeled waste, or investment on creating new markets for Germany.

[miroljub]

That's the same fallacy as claiming that rich people save money by donating to charity.

Simple example:

- Germany gives 100 € to other EU states

- Those states 100 € to buy made in Germany goods

- German companies have 10 € profits from those sales

- German state collects 5 € from those profits

In summary, German taxpayers paid 100 € so the state can collect 5 € taxes, and companies another 5 €. Not a very good deal.

And this calculation is crazy optimistic, because it assumes that all money that Germany gives to other countries will be used to purchase German good. In reality, they will be spent willy-nilly and German companies may not see even 1 € in return.

[sevenzero]

What people like you dont understand is what we get back from investing into foreign countries. We dont just build bicycle lanes there because we are such nice people.

[miroljub]

Can you please explain (ELI style) the great benefits German taxpayers have from the bicycle lanes in Peru?

[psychoslave]

National sovereignty, like "we are able to feed people with food grown on our soils?"

Mercosur anyone?

[niemandhier]

To be fair: our soil would greatly benefit from being allowed to rest for a decade.

In parts of Europe, our soil essentially depleted. I recommend reading.” 100 harvests.”

[psychoslave]

This can happen without putting the most part of intensive payload in a form of external dependencies that can be cut at any point by many factors, while losing all the skills and knowledge on how to effectively plant and harvest. Qualified farmers don’t appear magically over night, let alone people with the passion required to invest their own life into it.

And exporting the model that ravaged one own land, selling the poison that was forbidden in the countries exporting it, what kind of behavior is that? Letting some land having a bit of rest while the same depletion process is applied elsewhere, how fair is that?

[avemuri]

I've asked before - I am not clear what the massive boost is other than saving a few days or weeks at the beginning. I believe all taxation, labor compliance and other such regulation is still the same as the status quo. The one time ease of setup doesn't seem to be worth the ongoing hassle of dealing with the same crap, just with the added friction of a new and unfamiliar entity structure. What am I missing?