[fredrikholm]

> An entry fee that is reimbursed if the bug turns out to matter would stop this, real quick.

I refer to this as the Notion-to-Confluence cost border.

When Notion first came out, it was snappy and easy to use. Creating a page being essentially free of effort, you very quickly had thousands of them, mostly useless.

Confluence, at least in west EU, is offensively slow. The thought of adding a page is sufficiently demoralizing that it's easier to update an existing page and save yourself minutes of request time outs. Consequently, there's some ~20 pages even in large companies.

I'm not saying that sleep(15 * SECOND) is the way to counter, but once something becomes very easy to do at scale, it explodes to the point where the original utility is now lost in a sea of noise.

[teekert]

It’s strange how sensitive humans are to these sort of relative perceived efforts. Having a charged, cordless vacuum cleaner ready to go and take around the house has also changed our vacuuming game. Because carrying a big unwieldy vacuum cleaner and needing to find a power socket at every location just feels like much more effort. Even though it really isn't.

[TeMPOraL]

It is. The classical vacuum is heavier, you have to find the socket and plug it in (non-trivial if you have few of them, or have kids and sockets have kid blocks on them), and perhaps most importantly, you need two free hands to operate it (particularly when carrying, plugging in and repositioning). That alone is enough to turn it into a primary activity, i.e. the kind of thing that you explicitly decide to do and becomes your main focus. Meanwhile, a charged cordless cleaner is something you can semi-consciously grab with one hand while passing by, and use on the go to do some cleaning while actually focused on something else. It's an entirely different class of activity, much easier to fit in during the day.

Ironically, the cordless vacuum is even better than vacuum robots in this regard! I was surprised to hear from some friends and acquaintances that they prefer the manual vacuum to robotic one, and find it a better time/effort saver - but I eventually realized they're right, simply because the apps for controling the robotic vacuums are all steaming piles of shit, and their bad UI alone turns activating the robot into primary activity. It may be a brief activity, but it still requires full focus.

[fc417fc802]

Have you tried a handheld corded unit? I find most of the perceived effort with the larger unit is due to a combination of the bulk, the weight, and having to maneuver it around anything delicate without inadvertently bumping into it. Meanwhile the corded handheld never dies on me and I think isn't as bad for my hearing. All the cordless units I've tried seem to have an extremely high pitch whine to them.

[neutronicus]

Ok but the corded vacuum actually fucking works.

I keep having to get it from progressively more inconvenient locations to which it has been banished in order to humor my wife’s delusion that the roomba or the handhold do anything.

I can make multiple passes with the handheld to get 80% of the crumbs in a small area, troubleshoot why the robot didn’t run yesterday in order to hope it will get the crumbs tomorrow, or just get the corded vacuum out and actually clean a whole room.

Work involves cables. Any product that promises something different is a lie.

[nucleardog]

Maybe you just have a shit vacuum.

Our cordless, on the highest suction setting, is bordering on unusable. The effort to move it across carpet becomes quite high. Trying to roll it on an area rug tends to cause it to drag the rug around, and if you pick it up while on it will pull the rug up off the floor.

I have done some _very_ scientific testing here, vacuuming a section of carpet on the lowest section (doing lines where each pass half-overlapped the previous so each part of the carpet got touched once in each direction), emptying the vacuum, then going back over doing the same on high. Didn't see anything else come up. Shop vac didn't pull anything else out either that I could see.

I used to be in a similar boat of "these are a stupid class of product", but end of the day even if it takes eight passes my wife was going to use it anyway. The effort for her to set the time aside to drag around the heavier corded vacuum which is a substantial effort for her, etc, would be more than doing eight passes with a cordless. So got a good one and I'm sold on it now--it is quite convenient, and it does work.

Only thing I will say is the battery definitely can't do an entire carpeted house on a charge. We don't have that much carpet, so don't have any problem cleaning all the floors and a couple area and entry-way rugs on a charge.

[dgacmu]

This is an interesting discussion to me - I have a cordless vacuum that works well and a roborock combo vac/mop that works well. Actually, I'm lying, I have two cordless vacuums because the GGP's observation rings true to me and I got a second one for free and held on to it. :-)

Dyson cordless vac, older (v8 ultimate). Have had to replace battery once and broken trigger. Continues to be a workhorse.

Roborock s5v: I have it run 2x / day on weekdays, once in the morning after breakfast when we're taking the kids to school (vac kitchen only), and once after bedtime (vac + mop entire area). It does a great job of generally keeping things clean. Not perfect, but the overall dirt level stays low.

The cordless manual vac is really useful for "oh bleep, 8yo just spilled MORE stuff on the ground". I keep it next to the dining and kitchen area. It's not super aesthetic having it hanging on the wall in a visible location but I have engineer-itis and I value the convenience over the illusion that we don't own a vacuum. :) I approximately never use the robovac as an on-demand vacuum unless it's to run an extra pass when we're leaving home on a weekend and have left crumbs from a meal.

For us, substantially upping the frequency of vacuuming, even if it's not quite as deep, has made a big difference, and it's basically no extra burden to have the robovac run frequently after programming it.

[eckesicle]

What model of cordless vacuum do you have?

[teekert]

Well... I have a (1000 dollar!!!) Dyson cordless vacuum, arguable the laser + the histogram for "removed particles of size X", make me clean more thoroughly. The things is pretty heavy and applies a pretty good vacuum, imho.

[y-curious]

Bro the vacuum community is audiophile-level picky. I have a Dyson stick vacuum of some sort and I haven’t had any issue with picking up crumbs. I would rather manually bend over and pick up something it doesn’t grab than move around the heavy corded vacuum and plug it in 10 times.

[jeffbee]

I feel this sub thread can keep going if we introduce the complication of the whole-house vacuum system.

[TeMPOraL]

We can also spin off a subthread about pets, and another one about using vacuum cleaners on surfaces other than floor/carpet.

[TeMPOraL]

The term I know / used for this is "trivial inconveniences", via an old article of Scott Alexander[0].

The quote from example from early in the article stuck with me for years:

Think about this for a second. The human longing for freedom of information is a terrible and wonderful thing. It delineates a pivotal difference between mental emancipation and slavery. It has launched protests, rebellions, and revolutions. Thousands have devoted their lives to it, thousands of others have even died for it. And it can be stopped dead in its tracks by requiring people to search for "how to set up proxy" before viewing their anti-government website.

(Now this is more poetic, but I suppose the much more insightful example that also stuck with me is given later - companies enticing you to buy by offering free money, knowing well that most customers can't be arsed to fill out a form to actually get that money.)

--

[0] - https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/reitXJgJXFzKpdKyd/beware-tri...

[capitainenemo]

I suspect that applies specifically to their cloud rewrite which was apparently a bloat of JS libs and hundreds of requests even by Atlassian standards. The on-prem self-host Confluence I've used is still pretty snappy and pleasant to use and without throwing an absurd amount of resources at it. We do have quite a lot of actually-useful documentation in it.

That said, Atlassian is busy relentlessly raising the price for self-host to push people into their cloud roach motel, so we'll probably be on some alternative (either FOSS or commercial, but self-host) soon too.

[arionmiles]

I find this to be a very amusing critique. In my experience, Notion (when I stopped using it 3 years ago) was slow as molasses. Slow to load, slow to update. In comparison, at work, I almost exclusively favor Confluence Cloud. It's very responsive for me.

We have tons of Confluence wikis, updated frequently.

[zvqcMMV6Zcr]

I think it might be the same issue as with WordPress and Jira - terrible plugins. Each company uses own special mix, and encounters issues often occurring in that one specific configuration. And it is the base platform that takes the blame.

[cestith]

In particular a place I used to work had a plugin for threaded comments in Jira. The specific one we were using slowed things down noticeably with the DB on the same server, but not too much to be an improvement in overall usefulness.

Then we decided trying to make our Jira more reliable by splitting the DB out into a separate clustered DB system in the same data center. The latency difference going through a couple of switches and to another system really added up with those extra 1600 or so DB calls per page load.

We ended up doing an emergency reversion to an on-host DB. Later, we figured out what was causing that many queries.

[arionmiles]

You're referring to the on-prem Jira. That might suck, sure. My experience has been purely using Jira Cloud and Confluence Cloud, both of which I've found to be snappy and responsive.

[capitainenemo]

Amusingly, exactly opposite experience here. That said, our on-prem is jira and confluence integrated with db on same machine, and apache in front doing additional caching. I imagine like so many things it is how you set it up...

[cestith]

If you read my previous comment, I said it was largely the specific poor plugin that caused most of the performance issue with the database queries. I never complained about the overall speed of on-prem Jira. That was the assertion of the person who’s only ever used the cloud version.

[cestith]

My last company switched several teams to Jira Cloud. My current company started with Cloud when we moved over from other tools.

Cloud does not give you the flexibility of your own plugins, your own redundancy design, or your own server upgrades. On top of that, the performance is pretty variable and is far worse than a self-hosted Jira on fast hardware.

It’s interesting to me that your lack of experience to make a comparison qualifies you in some way to criticize the experience I actually have.

[jraph]

> Consequently, there's some ~20 pages even in large companies.

As someone working on Confluence to XWiki migration tools, I wish this was remotely true, my life would be way easier (and probably more boring :-)).

[capitainenemo]

Interesting. First I've heard of Xwiki - it does look nice, and what with Atlassian's price increases... do you have any migration tips?

[edit] I found https://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Conflu... - hopefully that's a good reference.

[jraph]

> hopefully that's a good reference

It is!

> what with Atlassian's price increases

And the end of their self hosting offerings (Server, Data Center), which is currently driving a lot of people towards XWiki, for other reasons than money. XWiki SAS being mainly in Europe makes it attractive to EU users too.

> do you have any migration tips?

I don't have specific migration tips. I hope the docs are complete enough!

However, I may suggest having a look at XWiki SAS's professional offering: https://store.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Confluence%...

The Confluence Migration Toolkit is based on the Confluence XML module you found, but it adds a nice and convenient UI, converts some more macros that XWiki SAS sells, there's support, and there's consulting for larger migration projects or projects with special requirements.

(note: despite some paying features, everything is open source)

(disclaimer in case it was not obvious, I work for XWiki SAS)