[kshri24]

I wouldn't say it is a tree as such as at least trees are deterministic where input parameters (seed, environment, sunlight) define the output.

LLM outputs are akin to a mutant tree that can decide to randomly sprout a giant mushroom instead of a branch. And you won't have any idea why despite your input parameters being deterministic.

[dpc050505]

You haven't done a lot of gardening if you don't know plants get 'randomly' (there's a biological explanation, but with the massive amounts of variables it feels random) attacked by parasites all the time. Go look at pot growing subreddits, they spend an enormous chunk of their time fighting mites.

[kshri24]

Determinism is not strictly anti-randomness (though I can see why one can confuse it to be polar opposites). Rather we do not even have true randomness (at least not proven) and should actually be called pseudorandom. Determinism just means that if you have the same input parameters (considering all parameters have been accounted for), you will get the same result. In other words, you can start with a particular random seed (pseudorandom seed to be precise) and always end up with the same end result and that would be considered deterministic.

> You haven't done a lot of gardening if you don't know plants

I grow "herbs".

> there's a biological explanation

Exactly. There is always an explanation for every phenomena that occurs in this observable, physical World. There is a defined cause and effect. Even if it "feels random". That's not how it is with LLMs. Because in between your deterministic input parameters and the output that is generated, there is a black box: the model itself. You have no access to the billions of parameters within the models which means you are not sure you can always reproduce the output. That black box is what causes non-determinism.

EDIT: just wanted to add - "attacked by parasites all the time", is why I said if you have control over the environment. Controlling environment encompasses dealing with parasites as well. Think of well-controlled environment like a lab.

[famouswaffles]

Do you think LLMs sidestep cause and effect somehow ? There's an explanation there too, we just don't know it, But that's the case for many natural phenomena.

[kshri24]

I am not saying LLM sidesteps cause-effect. I am saying it is a black box. So yes "we just don't know it" is basically describing a black box.

[doug_durham]

In what world are trees deterministic? There are a set of parameters that you can control that give you a higher probability of success, but uncontrollable variables can wipe you out.

[kshri24]

Explained here [1]. We live in a pseudorandom World. So everything is deterministic if you have the same set of input parameters. That includes trees as well.

I am not talking about controllable/uncontrollable variables. That has no bearing on whether a process is deterministic in theory or not. If you can theoretically control all variables (even if you practically cannot), you have a deterministic process as you can reproduce the entire path: from input to output. LLMs are currently a black box. You have no access to the billions of parameters within the model, making it non-deterministic. The day we have tools where we can control all the billions of parameters within the model, then we can retrace the exact path taken, thereby making it deterministic.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46663052