[Mistletoe]

>ended up having to switch back to Mac over missing webcam drivers and other random hardware issues

This has been my experience every time I try Linux. If I had to guess, tracing down all these little things is just that last mile that is so hard and isn't the fun stuff to do in making an OS, which is why it is always ignored. If Linux ever did it, it would keep me.

[wtetzner]

One solution to this problem is to buy from a vendor that installs Linux for you (e.g. System76). Much like with Apple, they can sell you a fully functional computer that way.

[black_puppydog]

My understanding is that the asahi team have been doing incredible work exactly with doing the non-fun bits. They just chose to do it on the hardware of a company that's extremely hostile to this kind of effort.

[jdejean]

I have to say that almost everything worked out of the box. The webcam is known to not mesh great with Asahi quite yet. Otherwise:

- Machine failed to wake from suspend almost 50% of the time (with both wired and BT peripherals) - WiFi speed was SIGNIFICANTLY slower. Easily a fraction of what it was on Mac - USB C display was no-op - Magic trackpad velocity is wild across apps - Window management shortcuts varied across apps (seems Gnome changes a lot, frequently) - Machine did not feel quicker, in fact generally felt slower than Tahoe but granted I did not benchmark anything

I would happily try it again when the project is further along

[chipotle_coyote]

Shortcuts are (probably) never going to be consistent across Linux apps; that's something Mac, and to some degree Windows, developers just historically care about more. I've also never found a better hardware trackpad than Apple's, nor found better OS-level drivers for trackpads than Apple's. (I'm sure somebody out there is ready to tell me their experience is different, but I've used many Linux distributions, many PC laptops with trackpads and at least two different PC desktop trackpads, and many Macs over the past quarter century and at least for me I'm going to stand by that.)

[Kina]

Apple is on the record as being neutral at worst on the matter and at best weakly supportive. I think there was an article when the M1 came out where it was reported that the Asahi Linux folks met with some Apple developers where they were encouraged to explore the system and report bugs, but that Apple was not going to offer any support.

Apple has also done things such as adding a raw image mode to prevent macOS updates from breaking the boot process for third-party operating systems. Which is only useful for 3rd party operating system development.

[TheDong]

Individual developers at apple may be weakly supportive (at best), but apple as a corporation has tended in the opposite direction, of locking down macOS and iOS more and more.

Sure, some developer may have added things like raw image mode, but if someone on high says "wait, people are buying macbooks and then not using the app store?" or as soon as someone's promo is tied to a security feature that breaks third-party OSes... well, don't be surprised when it vanishes. Running any OS but macOS is against ToS, and apple has already shown they are actively hostile to user freedom and choice (with the iOS app store debacle, the iMessage beeper mini mess, and so on). If you care about your freedom and ability to use Linux, you should not use anything Apple has any hand in ever.

[chipotle_coyote]

Almost everyone buying MacBooks installs applications outside of the App Store, the process for which has never changed (e.g., download it and run the installer or unzip it, use the free open-source package manager of your choice, etc.). I also can't find anything anywhere that suggests there are "terms of service" for Apple's hardware that prohibit installing another operating system on it, and part of Apple being "weakly supportive" of Asahi Linux is making deliberate design decisions to supporting installing third-party OSes on Apple Silicon in the first place. To copy from the Asahi Linux blog,

> Apple formally allows booting third-party operating systems on Apple Silicon Macs. Shortly after the Asahi project started, Apple even added a raw image mode to prevent macOS updates from breaking the boot process for third-party operating systems. This provided no benefit to macOS whatsoever; it merely served to help third-party operating system development.

There are a lot of reasons to be annoyed with Apple, but we don't need to invent new ones, and there's an awful lot of misinformation out there about Macs that conflates how locked down iOS is with the Mac (combined with the insistence that Macs are going to be locked down just as much as iPhones within the next few years, which I have literally been hearing since the iPhone came out in 2007). There are some things that are more difficult to do on macOS Tahoe than they were on MacOS Leopard twenty years ago (like, apparently, resize windows), but there is nothing that is "locked down" in a way that makes something I remember doing then literally impossible to do now.

[exidy]

Apple are not hostile, they are indifferent. If they were hostile, it would have been shot down both technically and legally long ago.

[TheDong]

The phrase was "apple is hostile to this kind of effort". "This kind of effort" is, I suppose, running non-official software on Apple hardware in general.

iOS and the third-party app store court battles makes it clear to me that Apple is actively hostile here.

It would have taken less work for apple to implement the EU "third-party app store" regulation as "anyone can install a 3rd party app store if they jump through enough hoops". They instead require that you live in the EU, as verified through many factors. They break it if you take too long of a vacation, they make using your new right to install a 3rd party app store as difficult as they can.

Apple clearly does not value user freedom nor users abilities to install their own software on their own devices. Apple would rather old iPhones and iPods become useless e-waste bricks than release an EoL update to unlock the bootloader and let you install linux to turn that old iPod touch into a garage remote, or photo-frame, or whatever.

[exidy]

Sorry but no. The comment I replied to was specifically referring to running Asahi Linux. This is not "Apple hardware in general" but specifically "Apple Silicon Macs".[0]

Your comments about iPads/iPhones may well be true but not relevant to my point. See also the comment from user Kina upthread.

[0] https://asahilinux.org/

[TheDong]

> specifically referring to running Asahi Linux.

Asahi linux would have been "a company that's extremely hostile to this effort."

They instead said "a company that's extremely hostile to this _kind of_ effort", which turns it into a broader category, which I believe quite reasonably includes their hostility to general "using their devices outside of the apple walled garden".

If you're going to be pedantic, please at least be correct, but "this kind of" clearly makes it more broad than just asahi linux itself.

[exidy]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong again. Person I responded to was replying to a comment around webcam drivers on a M2 mac mini. They wrote:

"the Asahi team have been doing incredible work .." -> the team working on porting Linux to Apple Silicon Macs.

"They just chose to do it on the hardware of a company that's extremely hostile to this kind of effort."

They -> Asahi Linux Team

it -> (note the singular) porting Asahi Linux

the hardware -> Apple Silicon Macs

a company -> Apple

My comment (the one you responded to): "it would have been shot down", (note the singular) it -> porting Asahi Linux.

You cannot torture the sentence to encompass the broader Apple ecosystem when the the subject is very obviously and solely the Asahi Linux team and Apple Silicon Macs. You're welcome to your views, just drop them somewhere more relevant next time.

[tuckerman]

I think this is true with an arm mac (and would be tricky to fix that, props to the Asahi folks for doing so much) but for a lot of other hardware (recent dell/asus/lenovo, framework, byo desktops) I find Linux complete. I'm sure there is hardware out there that with struggles but I've not had to deal with any issues for a few years now myself.

[pxc]

Bringing random hardware from vendors who never intended to support an OS is a weird criterion to judge an OS' "readiness" by— and one no one seems to apply to macOS or Windows.

[Mistletoe]

I have never had an issue making whatever Frankenstein monster PC I create eventually work in Windows.

[pxc]

Random hardware chosen without particular regard for compatibility ≠ hardware whose vendors never intended to support Windows. It's not the same test.

[ryang2718]

It can be very device specific unfortunately. Thinkpad tend to work quote well. I had a Framework that my wife took from me and it's truly fantastic, works out of the box.