[fooker]

Yes, I agree.

Now, everyone trying to fix the medical establishment is immediately called an anti vaxxer, science denier, etc.

At some point it was inevitable that we get someone who can shrug these labels off because they do not have a scientific reputation that can be killed with these labels.

My point is, again, we are in this situation because sane attempts to fix things has not worked. To an extent that people will literally try anything.

[mbesto]

> everyone trying to fix the medical establishment is immediately called an anti vaxxer, science denier, etc.

That's because the thought leaders who are fed up with the medical establishment are gaining traction by spreading anti-vax and science denial ideas and not calling out specific medical establishment (other than "big pharma is a boogie man!"). So, it's hard to take their position seriously (even though, I too and anti medical establishment)

[fooker]

That was not my point, of course antivaxxers and science deniers exist and should not be taken seriously.

I meant - the medical establishment is notorious for attacking every opposition, especially when it comes to policy, with those labels.

That guarantees scientists who stand to lose their careers won't bother trying to fix anything. That's how you get asshats like RFK Jr.

[sjsdaiuasgdia]

> Now, everyone trying to fix the medical establishment is immediately called an anti vaxxer, science denier, etc.

Well they keep showing up with shitty unverified claims...are we supposed to treat their shitty claims as valid just because they're against the grain?

It's also good to keep an eye on the graft. It's funny how pretty much every big personality in the alt-med space has totally awesome products to sell you that Big Science won't let you know about.

[fooker]

Maybe you missed my point.

I claim that every credible opposition to the medical establishment has been branded as science denial for decades, so much that scientists and researchers won't even bother any more for the sake of their careers.

That's how you get the people you are talking about.

[sjsdaiuasgdia]

Which credible oppositions that were branded as science denial do you have in mind, specifically?

My own memory of opposition to the medical establishment in past decades inevitably flows to homeopathy, colloidal silver, and other nonsense. There's always been a lot of kooks and grifters trying to make a buck off the gullible by playing on their paranoia.

[fooker]

The most prominent historical example is Semmelweis, dude wanted doctors to start washing hands. Was ridiculed, bullied, and abused into insanity.

I'll leave out mrna vaccines and gender related examples to avoid politically charged examples and people missing the forest for the trees.

Here are some more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Abramson (Read his book!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Olivieri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Healy_(psychiatrist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Oldham_Kelsey

You can google the general topic and see that there are hundreds more, but none of these individuals managed to become prominent or well known because they just gave up.

[tombert]

If your “fixes” for the medical establishment include spreading unsubstantiated fear mongering about vaccines and science denial then you would be right to be classified as an anti vaxxer and a science denier.

[zaphar]

I think you might be missing the posters point. He agrees with you on nearly every point you are making. He is however expanding on that saying that the problem is something of a self-own by the combination of science, science reporting, and science driven policy. Trust was so thoroughly lowered that there was almost no avoiding an event like Trump/RFK. It can be true that 1. RFK is not qualified and is likely to make things worse. 2. This is partly the responsibility of the establishment for squandering the trust that the public put in them.

[fooker]

Right.

It's funny that my point about 'every attempt to fix the medical establishment is branded as science denial' was branded as science denial :)

Nice recursive proof.