[mindslight]

We had been talking about whether they were physically impeding ICE agents, but now you're framing things as if being "there for a while" would be a problem in and of itself. Meanwhile in America it is every citizen's right, and perhaps even duty, to observe and criticize government agents. To be very clear: stayed stopped on the street [0], observing, filming, and heckling government agents is all Constitutionally-protected activity.

Moving the goalposts to unsupportable standards ("middle of an awkward u-turn" ?!?) makes it hard to assume good faith.

And furthermore, ICE has body cameras. Surely if there was footage of ICE agents actually being impeded, it would have been widely publicized by now. Instead, we've only heard wild assertions claiming they were. And with the reputation of this administration, it's only reasonable to assume those are bald-faced lies.

[0] when done in furtherance of other Constitutionally-protected activity and not being policed in line with normal traffic enforcement

[bananabiscuit]

I never said the U-turn was the only acceptable reason that they could be there, I only mentioned it because it was the most innocent possible reason for Renee to be there that I can think of.

In these cases, isn’t it usual for evidence to be kept out of the public eye until after all relevant court trials are done?

Also, just to be very clear, I am not saying ICE shot Renee because she was being a nuisance. I am saying she got shot because she made an intentional and almost lethal maneuver at the ICE agent with her car.

[mindslight]

Sorry, I shouldn't have referenced the u-turn as the changed goalpost when my real qualm was the other end of characterizing "being there for a while" as a problem.

> In these cases, isn’t it usual for evidence to be kept out of the public eye until after all relevant court trials are done?

Do you actually think that is what is being done here in any sense, what with the release of the body cam footage and the immediate assertive statements by the government?

> Also, just to be very clear, I am not saying ICE shot Renee because she was being a nuisance. I am saying she got shot because she made an intentional and almost lethal maneuver at the ICE agent with her car.

This is just restating where we started our argument. There are many instances of because here, so the only way to sort through them is to make a clear distinction between what is and what ought:

If we're talking about what is, then yes I think we can all agree that Renee would have been better off if she had not tried to drive away. Renee would have also been better off if she had remained quiet, passively observed, not mouthed off to violent men with guns, and if she still somehow ended up drawing aggro, the moment that started happening she should have driven off before she was anywhere close to boxed in. Even if you are right, you can still be dead.

But if we're talking about what ought, as in, what should a citizen in a free society based around individual liberty and limited government ought to have the right to do, without suffering repercussions (especially high-stakes escalation summary judgement repercussions) from the government? I would say that's a pretty high bar centered on physical aggression. No amount of exercising your first amendment right to criticize the government by heckling its individual agents, nor just generally being a verbal nuisance, justifies a high-stakes escalation by "public servants" (being surrounded and assaulted) whereby one imprudent move results in death.

And as far as our argument here, you haven't really presented anything showing that her actions were in the aggressively violent camp, as opposed to the Constitutionally-protected nuisance camp. I'm open to evidence of violent aggression, but all I have generally seen about this situation consists of naked assertions and innuendo.

[nkurz]

I have nothing specific to add, but just wanted to thank both of you for trying hard to have a productive conversation about a contentious topic despite disagreeing. It's nice to see people leading by providing positive examples rather than screaming at each other.