[noo_u]

It is, at this point, an easily verifiable fact that software engineering jobs in Europe are en masse poorly paid relative to the equivalent positions in the US, and the majority of the EU companies that actually pay well are actually US based. This causes a lot of outflow of talent. That VC funding in Europe is atrocious is obvious to anyone who has had to go through it, and have fun letting a poor performer go from your 5 person startup.

Your polite wishful responses are frustrating to read to anyone who's had to go through this hell.

[palata]

Are you saying that Europe can't compete with the US monopolies because all the good developers move to the US?

[rdm_blackhole]

Yes that is what OP is saying and OP is correct. If you are young, talented and you have a crazy idea that might just work and if you are given the opportunity then you go to the US every-time.

Why? Because it makes sense. Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US or better yet, start your own company there and then expand in Europe after building it knowing that if you eventually sell it, you get to keep a lot of the sale price.

Talented people don't work for nothing. Motivated and ambitious people don't work for nothing.

If Europe wants to see it's own tech giants emerge, then it's needs to compensate founders and employees well. That's as simple as it is.

Unfortunately it's just not the case at the moment and until that changes, the most ambitious Europeans will continue leaving and building companies on the other side of the Atlantic.

[palata]

> Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US

Have you ever talked to Europeans in your life?

[rdm_blackhole]

Have you? I am a European business owner just FYI. I know very well how much taxes I am paying each month.

[menaerus]

It always amazes me that there is a subset of EU people here on HN who are so detached from reality that it makes me wonder if these same people are sitting in Brussels board making decisions. According to the sh*thole in which EU ended up, it is not completely implausible. Can't agree more with what you're saying. My experience is the same.

[rdm_blackhole]

I hear you.

It's frustrating really to have these conversations with people who will deny the reality this much.

Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions that everyone should be asking, which are amongst others "how can we fix this mess?" , you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU for spite when it couldn't be further from the truth.

It's sad but not surprising and until that changes then nothing will change.

Europeans need to start being humble again and need to get to work otherwise then we shouldn't be surprised if the US squeezes us from one side while China out-innovates us from the other side. In the meantime the EU is debating if/when it should amend it's cookie law, I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this point.

[palata]

It always amazes me that there are people who genuinely believe that those who disagree with them are "so detached from reality".

You are a genius, everybody else is dumb. Way to go. Have you already received your Nobels?

[palata]

> I am a European business owner

Exactly. This sentence on its own is enough to explain your opinion, there is no need to explain anything else. Those who are against regulations are the ones who benefit from the lack of regulations.

And those who are in a dominant position generally think that they are there because they deserve it, because they are superior.

[rdm_blackhole]

> And those who are in a dominant position generally think that they are there because they deserve it, because they are superior.

And this sentence explains your opinion. Business owner = superior = bad

You haven't responded to anything anyone has said despite the fact that a few of us seem to agree on these issues.

You basically brush aside anything that does not conform to your narrative and you also dismiss the entire report of Mario Draghi on European competitiveness: https://commission.europa.eu/topics/competitiveness/draghi-r... who agrees that there are many issues currently with the entire tech industry in Europe.

The facts are simple: - the EU tech scene is minuscule compared to the US tech scene - the average salary of a tech worker is higher in the US than in Europe - there are many incredible challenges in Europe that stop Europe from competing properly with the US companies - there is a clear lack of innovation and a very real risk aversion and less cash spent on R&D in Europe compared to the US - European competitiveness is lacking and decreasing as time goes on compared to the US

> Those who are against regulations are the ones who benefit from the lack of regulations.

But you are right let's keep adding more rules and regulations, I am sure the next one will do the trick and help us expand our tech sector.

That would be a great narrative except that even the European commission disagrees with you since they are now exploring the option of scaling back some part of GDPR and even delaying the new AI laws because they suddenly realized that it was a major impediment to a healthy tech sector in Europe: https://iapp.org/news/a/european-commission-proposes-signifi...

In conclusion, you are arguing in bad faith, you believe what you believe because it's easier than to face the facts that Europe dropped the ball 20 years ago and missed the boat on many new technologies and that it is now trying to play catch up and unfortunately catching up will take many decades if that ever happens.

[CrimsonRain]

because EU suffocates good developers, gives free roaming to mediocre ones. EU cant compete with anything US or China except making more cookie laws.

[noo_u]

Did I use the word "all" anywhere in my comment? There are good developers in Europe. What I am saying is that there would have been even more of them had the incentives not been so lackluster. More talent seems to generally result in a greater competitive ability.

Fwiw, I have doubts that currently Europe can compete with the US at the startup level, let alone at the bigco one.

I am not trying to drag Europe down - it worries me that sophisticated complacency, overconfidence based on the achievements of previous generations, and addiction to comfort, will start eroding the very aspects that make it a great place to live at.