[barbazoo]

> Do not trust in a friend; Do not put your confidence in a companion; Guard the doors of your mouth From her who lies in your bosom. For son dishonors father, Daughter rises against her mother, Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; A man’s enemies are the men of his own household. Therefore I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; My God will hear me.

Yikes, got a fun one right away. That seems like rather unhealthy behavior to me. Maybe not really for the younger ones then.

[publicdebates]

It's related to John 2:23-25. He's not saying you should not have friends or trust anyone. He's saying you should not seek or hope anything from humans that only God can actually provide. It's related to codependence and similar character flaws. I think even atheists would agree that it's not healthy to want the objective approval and validation of inconstant people with imperfect judgment.

[barbazoo]

> He's saying you should not seek or hope anything from humans that only God can actually provide.

What is it that only the god can provide?

[publicdebates]

Absolutely objective values, rights, morals, principles, goals, means, and sustenance.

Source: the Our Father prayer

[tshaddox]

Presumably there are a lot of atheists who do believe all three of these things:

1. God does not exist.

2. Objective ethics do exist.

3. Objective ethics do not come directly from the mandate of a friend, a companion, or another human.

[publicdebates]

Even if so, that only answers the "morals" part of what I listed.

Where for example do they derive absolutely objective goals from?

[barbazoo]

> goals, means, and sustenance

Surely not sustenance in the sense of food so I presume it's what we usually call meaning? People might get it from whatever fulfills them. For many it's giving back to the community in some way. It's not something I was told, more something that feels right and would scale well if everyone did it.

What are absolutely objective goals here? Are we talking about what do I want to be true at the end of my life? Staying healthy, looking back when you're old and not regretting a lot, being part of and respected by your community, those things. What would be a goal that God would suggest one works toward in this context. Can you relate that to what you have in mind?

[tshaddox]

I was lumping all of those into "ethics," which refers to all normative questions (or questions about "ought"s, if you like).

[barbazoo]

Thank you!

Not having read the bible the words sounds so specific and strong.

> Do not trust in a friend; Do not put your confidence in a companion; ... For son dishonors father, Daughter rises against her mother, ... A man’s enemies are the men of his own household.

I guess you have to read the whole thing to imagine the context in which this won't, even accidentally, be interpreted literally. I'm not judging or anything, genuinely curious, obviously these are historical texts from a certain time in history. That's why I'm so curious about the value people see in reading them over and over again in the current times.

[publicdebates]

You can almost consider the Bible like a puzzle or riddle, that you have to solve using the entirety of it, as well as historical context, extrabiblical writings, personal life experience, and a humble and pure intent.

[gjm11]

There's rather a lot in the Bible that no one would regard as suitable reading for children if it were from any other book.

[graemep]

It is a collection of works, many of which are not suitable for children. Few people will disagree with this. This is why there are simplified and sanitised reappropriate revellings for kids. On the other hand many of the works in the collection are suitable for those capable of reading it.