[hallole]

The first food group listed is literally meat and dairy. The ordering here is purposeful, too, as they admit. One promo graphic includes a block of butter and a carton explicitly labelled "whole milk." This is a very definite downgrade.

[cmoski]

Butter is king. It should be pictured with a crown, stars and glitter.

Surely whole milk is better than less-than-whole milk?

[keleftheriou]

Why is that a downgrade?

[smaudet]

Dairy/Meat are both inflammatory and overconsumption contributes to a whole host of medical disease.

Some protein is obviously desirable, but the ratios, like anything else in chemistry/biology, are paramount.

I don't think the USA has a problem with under consumption of meat and dairy. If anything, it has a long standing overconsumption problem.

[toxik]

The relationship between dairy/meat and inflammation is more nuanced than that. While some studies show associations with inflammatory markers, others find neutral or even anti-inflammatory effects depending on the type (e.g., grass-fed vs grain-fed, fermented vs non-fermented dairy) and individual metabolic context.

You're right that ratios matter enormously, but optimal ratios vary significantly by individual - genetics, activity level, metabolic health, and existing conditions all play roles. The overconsumption concern is valid for processed meats and in the context of sedentary lifestyles with excess calories, but the picture is less clear for whole-food animal proteins in balanced diets.

The real issue might be less about meat/dairy per se and more about displacement of other beneficial foods (fiber, polyphenols, etc) and overall dietary patterns. Many Americans do overconsume calories generally, but some subpopulations (elderly, athletes, those on restricted diets) may actually benefit from more protein.

[genewitch]

why is meat inflammatory? is it they way it's farmed/raised?

because we have teeth specifically designed to get meat off bones and animals that don't eat meat and weren't "designed to" don't have teeth designed to clean meat off bones. and that's just one i came up with, off the cuff.

if it's current farming practices that make the meat/dairy bad for us, then fix that. But i don't currently believe there's a greater health benefit to taking a ton of supplements to replace the missing nutrients that meat and dairy give us that you absolutely cannot get from vegan diets without it becoming a monotonous pain in the neck.

[didibus]

> why is meat inflammatory? is it they way it's farmed/raised?

Not all meats are inflammatory. Processed and high temp cooked meats especially red are.

And I don't think we have the answer fully to why, but we know the lesser processed it is the better, and I believe I've seen some things about grass fed and all these more organically/traditional made meats seem to not be as inflammatory.

Also, we evolved during a period where we hunted, so even the idea of farmed meet maybe isn't really part of our evolution. But also, during our hunting evolution, we likely didn't have meat at every meals. Plus if you ever had game meat, it tastes really different and often isn't as good as what we farmed. So we kind of came to farm what tasted the best and was easy to farm, so it might be those meats aren't as good for us.

Also, you can't always assume that the environment we evolved in and the "natural" state is good for us. It wasn't bad enough for us to dwindle in numbers, but our population count was kept much lower than now and our life expectancies were shorter. As long as we made it to a healthy reproduction state evolution doesn't care. So all these inflammatory issues appear starting in your 30s and really become a problem much later in life. It's possible this didn't matter in evolutionary terms.

Lastly, you also have to take into context what else we'd do/eat. If our diets were more balanced than other things we would eat could neutralize some of that inflammation and meat has other vitamins and nutrients that are benefitial, but if someone cuts those other things out of their diet now the inflammation could become a problem.

So it's all more nuanced and complex.

[genewitch]

  > we know  > seem to  
  > maybe    > likely   > often   >might
  > possible > could    > some    > could

I understand what you're trying to say but you're hedging so hard Benson is suing

[hallole]

Good stuff here. To add to your point: atherosclerosis actually begins development as early as childhood, but you only suffer 40 or 50 years down the line once you're hit with a stroke or a heart attack. Evolution didn't act on this!

[GenBiot]

I think they mean in the sense of pro-inflammatory. Which it very much is (especially red meat).

[aziaziazi]

Some herbivores too have huge canines[0] for territorial fights. I used to use mine to fight my brother but now I'm settled they only help tearing appart coconut, cowliflower and seitan.

0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_deer

[donbrae]

You can get all the nutrients you need, easily, from a vegan diet, with the exception of B12 (a cheap supplement will cover that).

Also, human ‘canines’ are pretty pathetic. They’ll do the job in getting meat off bones, sure, but are nothing compared with my dog’s teeth – he has proper canines. (He also doesn’t have to prepare and cook meat before tucking in. Humans are actually pretty lame meat eaters even in comparison to other omnivores like dogs, let alone carnivores like lions.)

[genewitch]

vitamin D? unless you live within 10 degrees of the equator "the sun" is not a valid answer.

The most available form of vitamin D comes from extracting the oil from sheep's wool/skin using chemicals (soap is a chemical, for the record.) Yes, it is possible to get a much weaker form of D from mushrooms, but not as they arrive, regardless of packaging. they have to be left outside in the sun for at least 8 hours, but ideally "two full days in the sun", cap-side up (facing the sun), and then a standard mushroom will have enough D2 for the average adult, maybe. I don't know the specific conversion from D2 to calciferol or whatever.

And before anyone decides to cite 30ng/ml or whatever as "recommended", i disagree, 90-105ng/ml is more "ideal" and 500IU of vitamin D supplements aren't going to cut it. it's 1 IU per 10 grams of body mass (roughly).

i can do this all day, it's a waste of both of our time. As lovely as vegetarian/veganism is in the abstract, the entire planet cannot be vegan any more than the entire planet can subsist off insects.

[hallole]

Vegan D3 is derived from algae, I believe.

My vegan diet involves a lot of beans, rice, ..., which all require considerably less input than meat does. A bag of beans costs so very little, lasts so long, and is healthy. Meat and dairy are luxuries that come at the cost of pretty horrific treatment for a great number of animals.

[hallole]

Can you name which EXACT nutrients you "absolutely cannot get from vegan diets without it becoming a monotonous pain in the neck"? A daily multivitamin isn't hard.

[ChrisGreenHeur]

That explains the great olympic track record of India.

[didibus]

I think generally people are optimizing for health outcome and longevity, not peak athletic performance at your prime age.

But also, I've seen people often assume vegetarian or vegan diets are "healthy". But many people in India for example will still eat a lot of refined carbs, added sugars, fat heavy deep fried foods, large volumes of ghee or seed oils, etc. And total avoidance of animal products can also mean you have some deficiencies in nutrients that can be hard to obtain otherwise.

A plant-forward diet is more specific, like the Mediterranean diet, which itself isn't at all how your average Mediterranean person eats haha. But it involves no processed foods, no added sugar or excessive sugar, diverse set of nutrients by eating a balance of veggies, legumes, nuts, seeds, meats, dairy, fish, and so on all in appropriate proportions, as well as keeping overall caloric intake relatively low.

It's quite hard to eat that way to be honest haha.

[hallole]

Meat and dairy contain the bulk of the saturated fat in the average diet. It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy, but due to the ordering, that almost seems to be implied.

The saturated fat → LDL-C → heart disease relationship has a lot of evidence and history behind it. A very interesting research project if you needed one. I call this advisory a "downgrade" because heart attack and stroke (among other conditions) are both: 1) downstream of saturated fat consumption, and 2) the most prevalent causes of death among people in the developed world.

[cogman10]

It also very prominently shows red meat, which is the worst you can do.

fish > poultry > red meat. (Fish and poultry can be swapped, mercury is a real problem).

But really if you are looking for the healthiest proteins then you really can't do much better than nuts and beans.

Red meat beyond having a lot of links to heart disease is also linked to cancer. It should be seen as a treat, not the main thing you should be consuming.

[LorenPechtel]

Yup, there's a hole in our data that they appear to be exploiting. Early studies of saturated fat showed it was unhealthy, but then larger, longer studies found nothing. Were the first studies wrong? Or is the problem that we no longer have a control group--people responded to the news by cutting back on saturated fat?

[dokyun]

> It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy

Ever look at Mongolian cuisine? That's the bulk of what they eat. Most of those guys seem pretty healthy to me.

[didibus]

One thing I think we should better emphasize is that it's best to avoid foods that are bad for you, than to eat foods that are good for you. If you can't do both, you should focus on cutting out bad foods over eating healthier foods.

Meat (non-processed, no sugary sauce or gravy), and dairy (plain, fermented, no added sugar). Those are kind of "neutral" foods. If that's all you eat, meaning you don't eat any crap, you're much better off health wise than if you eat crap and try to also eat a bunch of veggies, fish, fruits, legumes, etc.

[Amezarak]

> It's pretty absurd to imagine a diet in which the largest food group is just meat and dairy

There's nothing absurd about this at all, this is my diet and my LDL numbers are great.

[hallole]

That's unhealthy and honestly gross. Maybe you have the genes -- there are smokers who make it to 100! -- but you should adjust your diet for your own sake. I wouldn't bet on being an outlier.

[Amezarak]

I don’t believe there is any solid scientific reason to change my diet. Indeed I’d say there is mild evidence otherwise. I think the main issue is being turning this into a moralizing issue.

[ANarrativeApe]

"The first food group listed is literally meat and dairy."

that's because the pyramid is presented pointy end down.

[tomp]

You're literally just lying.

The first thing shown on the website is - broccoli.

The top of the pyramid includes both protein (meat, cheese) as well as fruits & vegetables.

The reason that meat is shown first is probably that it's the bigger change (it's been demonized in previous versions), whereas vegetables were always prominent.

[simiones]

The first thing on the website is indeed broccoli. But the first thing in the new inverted pyramid, both on the website and in other graphics of it, is meat. In fact, on the website, when you first get to "The New Pyramid", you'll first see only the left half, the one that has meat and other proteins; you'll have to scroll more to see the right half with vegetables and fruit.

[galangalalgol]

I don't think it is meant to read left to right but top to bottom. Chicken and broccoli are top center, and that is the standard weight lifter meal plan. That said, human dietary needs vary individually by far more than any lobbied leaders will ever communicate.

[hallole]

The website is animated, so there's no question of which direction to read in, the left side literally pops up first lol. I can't lie, I miss websites that stood still, this could've just been a PDF.

BTW, you say "lobbied leaders" -- if you're talking about the scientists who have their names on this report, you'd be very correct. The "conflicting interests" section has loads of references to the cattle and dairy industries.

[didibus]

The only difference from the previous guidance is that it's suggesting eating more meat and dairy, which would come at the expense of veggies, legumes, nuts and seeds.

To be honest, I don't totally disagree from a practical angle. I think we have to acknowledge that most Americans failed to eat large portions of non-processed veggies, legumes, nuts and seeds. The next best thing might be to tell them, ok, at least if you're going to eat meat and dairy in large portions, make sure it's non-processed.

I've found for myself, it's hard to eat perfectly, but it's easier to replace processed foods and added sugar with simpler whole meats, fish and healthy fats like avocado, eggs, etc. And since those have higher satiety it helps with calorie control and so you avoid eating more snacks and treats which are heavily processed and sugary.

That said, in a purely evidence based health sense, it's not as good as the prior ratios from what I've seen of the research.