[alfonsodev]

At the risk of sounding stupid, I’ve noticed my mom’s house smell has changed a lot in the last year and is stronger in her room and bathroom, coincidentally or not, since she has started showing mild dementia symptoms and has been diagnosed with vascular dementia. She feels extremely tired despite standard blood test markers being OK.

The smell could have simple explanations, like she forgets to ventilate the room, or her hygiene is not as good as before, since she has become more avoidant of any discomfort, but we are helping her with the hygiene part at least, the ventilation is harder because she complains about cold, and refuses to leave the room. Also to me, it is a different smell from what would be poor ventilation and from what would be lack of hygiene, but I can’t point out what it is. I'm usually very good detecting when a room has not been ventilated, I just feel I breath worse and can't focus as well, I'm annoying to other people that doesn't want to open the window.

She spends most of the time in bed, her body is telling her to sleep much more than before, and she has become very stubborn about getting out of the house, going to the dentist, etc. Since she is very intelligent and still has the verbal ability to make you believe she will do it as soon as she feels better and that will be soon, the reality is that months are passing by and that is not happening.

I wonder if anyone could recommend an affordable but effective air quality device, mold testing kits (if such a thing exists), or what targeted blood tests can be done. Also, if there are tests to fine grain the diagnosis of vascular dementia, to know if there is accumulation of proteins in the brain, or what is the origin of the issue.

She is 79 years old, perhaps there is nothing to do, but somehow I feel the environment of the house has something toxic in it, I even thought about electromagnetic fields, but I really don’t know where to start.

Edit: We live in Spain, her doctor feedback is that her blood tests are great for her age, and we didn't have much info about the vascular dementia situation somehow has been implied that is normal in her age.

[theIntuitionist]

There is an easy and cheap test that is actually accurate. You place Petri dishes with a specific medium in them in the room, open, for an hour. Then you close them and put them in a dark spot for a week. When you next look at them, count the colonies that have formed. 3 or 4 or below is fine. 3 to 6 or 7 you need to wipe the walls with citrus oil cleaner or diluted bleach, deep clean carpets, remove old books and otherwise deep clean the space. More than that, you likely have mold issues in the walls or ceiling or floors. All mold issues come from water sources- small leaks in plumbing, old seals around the edges of bathtubs, ingress from clogged gutters backing up, etc. here’s where you can get the petri dishes- https://immunolytics.com/store/ Don’t bother with the kit or with paying them to interpret results, just count colonies like I outlined above.

We are going through this now. It’s no fun at all. We have the house ripped down to the studs. A couple times the plates saved us, showing there was more mold then we’d thought. We’d rip out some stuff we’d found, run the test, find too many colonies on the plate then dig some more only to find more issues. Finally, we are getting clear plates, and I feel much better.

If it does turn out to be mold and fatigue caused by the mold feel free to contact me as I have been through it and am now on the mend. It’s a long difficult process with only the vague signals you mentioned to guide you.

[Aurornis]

Please don't direct people to that website selling overpriced petri dishes, "expert consult" services, and using scare tactics to convince people to order their expensive tests.

> count the colonies that have formed. 3 or 4 or below is fine. 3 to 6 or 7 you need to wipe the walls with citrus oil cleaner or diluted bleach, deep clean carpets, remove old books and otherwise deep clean the space.

Mold spores are everywhere in the air. This is not an accurate test at all. It's a random number generator. The thresholds don't even make sense: 3-4 is fine but 3-6 means throw out your books and deep clean the house?

If you want professional mold testing services, please start by looking up your local health department and seeing who they recommend for testing.

Most importantly, don't buy anything or take any advice from websites that have long lists of non-specific health symptoms that they claim are caused by mold. The lists of symptoms on that website include everything under the sun from headaches to sleep problems to acid reflux - https://immunolytics.com/understand-mold/ - This is how alternative medicine (and testing) sellers make their sales funnel as large as possible, not real science.

[theIntuitionist]

In the US where I live, professional mold testing companies have big expensive machines which supposedly count spores in the air. The results always come back negative, unless the space is visibly super contaminated. This is because mold is usually in the walls and these services are called in after a water issues to absolve landlords of financial responsibility for the extensive work and expense it would take to actually solve mold problems. It’s a nasty business.

We had our place professionally tested, got negative results, then tore the place down to the studs anyway (eventually, after the Petri dish tests described above) and found all sorts of mold.

[alfonsodev]

Thanks a lot for sharing that.

Now that you say water sources, I just remembered she has a reverse osmosis water filter, and God knows the last time that filter was changed.

How would you go about testing the water or the filter with that method ?

[lobsterthief]

My grandmother is currently dying from vascular dementia at 80. She sleeps all day. There’s really nothing you can do except keep them comfortable. There is no cure, only treatments for side effects unfortunately.

And yes, she smells weird ;) it’s mostly from change in normal hygiene. No matter how much you help clean them, they will smell different than they used to. And not good-different.

[bell-cot]

> At the risk of ...

Any decent person would take that risk, for their mother's health.

At least in the US, there's a fairly large industry built around mold testing & remediation. Laboratories need to be inspected & certified, and you can do your own home air testing and receive the results directly from the lab.

Compared to a family member's health, testing is very cheap.

Vs. if you're testing to make sure the house isn't rotting - that's trickier. Many sorts of mold can be underachievers at releasing spores (which is what the common air tests look for). Or the spores could be released in a wall cavity or something, where air doesn't circulate and carry them to where you're taking samples.

I've no idea what the situation is in Spain.

Changing topic - my mother's mental health & vision were destroyed by an undiagnosed case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_cell_arteritis . America's health care system burned through incredible amounts of money for fancy high-tech scans and tests. It did not bother with having a competent doctor sit down, and really think about what might be causing mom's slowly-worsening symptoms. That would not have been hard - mom was in the very highest-risk demographic for that disease. And after it was too late - my optician was able to diagnose her in seconds, sight unseen, from just my in-passing mention of her eye-related symptoms.

(Yes, I also got the clear feeling that the health care system did not care at all about an elderly woman's declining health);

[Aurornis]

> At least in the US, there's a fairly large industry built around mold testing & remediation

Be aware that's there's also a very large industry built around selling people unnecessary or non-standard mold tests (which always come back positive) along with "expert consultation services" and then refer you to local remediation companies for a very large kickback.

Mold scares are big business. If you visit a company's website and they have long lists of non-specific illnesses or make claims that nearly every disease could be caused by mold, don't engage with them. If you contact them at all or buy their services you're likely to end up in their leads database and be marketed to until the end of time. There is a lot of money in scaring people into unnecessary mold testing and remediation services.

[alfonsodev]

Thanks for sharing that experience, it means a lot.

Sometimes it feels like the health system is just about keeping you alive, and they don't dig enough in different posible root causes, they focus on treating the symptoms, specially with elderly.

> That would not have been hard

I understand the feeling, and it inspires me to look for a second opinion and someone more involved in finding a root cause. I'm sure in your case you did what you though it was best with the information you had, the reality is that the system does not invest in prevention and education of us patients and relatives. Knowing certain demographic is high risk should be somehow automated to raise flags when certain symptoms are mention even if they are in-passing mentioned as you said, because we as regular people are not educated to weight the importance of symptoms, and often doctors get defensive if you come with a theory.

The other day I was at the doctor, he was asking me many things, trying to figure out my stomach problems, I though I had a stomach flu, then really at the and by chance I mentioned I was at the dentist the week before and they gave me antibiotics for 7 days, it was only then with that small comment that I almost forget to say that the doctor could have the explanation, he said some antibiotics wipe out the gut microbiota, and it just gave me some probiotics and I was fine the day after, with a big improvement. I don't know how much time would have take me to recover if I would have forgotten about that detail.

When I think about it after the fact, duh! of course antibiotics kill gut bacteria, I heard that a million times in podcasts, but I did not make the connection.

My point is that we have enough in our plates and our profession is already quite complex, we deal with tons of complexities and it shouldn't be our job to know the right questions, or the right doctor to go for, but I wish there was a system that focused more on preventions, and finding the root cause with a more multidisciplinary approach rather that specialized niche knowledge doctors that ignore other causes, or symptoms if they are not present if their knowledge map.

[adastra22]

I don’t have specific suggestions for your questions, but that does sound like mold, and the mold could be progressing those symptoms.

[alfonsodev]

> but that does sound like mold, and the mold could be progressing those symptoms

That's both my fear and my hope, if you have any good resource that I could educate myself about this hypothetical type of mold that can accelerate the symptoms of dementia, please share, would be very useful.

Thank you

[Aurornis]

If you think there is a mold problem you could look for any sources of moisture or leaks and remediate those. The CDC has some guidance on where to start https://www.cdc.gov/mold-health/about/index.html

If moisture is a problem in areas like the bathroom you can install an automatic humidity controlled switch for the fan. It will regulate humidity automatically after showers.

If you feel like you must do something more, a HEPA air purifier would remove mold spores from the air. A carbon filter would remove odors and other compounds. A building-level solution is a heat recovery ventilator which brings in fresh air but captures most of the heat from the exhaust air.

I know you want to find a source of the health problem and identify something you can fix, but mold is probably not it. Mold is a popular topic in complementary and alternative medicine as an explanation for everything. If you ask the internet if any health condition could be caused by mold, someone will show up and tell you yes. I need to caution you that there are forums and subreddits where this is taken to extremes and anyone who disagrees has their comments deleted, creating an illusion of consensus. Some of these forums will tell you that the only solution is to move to a dry climate and only sleep outside. There are mold testing companies where your results will always come back positive followed by a recommendation that you buy their expensive consulting services. Please take some caution and a healthy dose of skepticism before getting involved with this subject.

[adastra22]

One addition to this excellent advice: removing the moisture is not enough. Now that there is a mold infestation, you will need to replace the drywall and other affected areas.

[zDOx1]

Last year I found this YouTube channel, which you might find helpful. He mostly covers topics like how to deal with mold issues, improving air quality at home, as well as his experience with mold sickness. https://youtube.com/@healthyhomeguide

[adastra22]

I do not have a good link sorry. This is more of my general background knowledge that have accumulated over the years, as I have faced various similar situations. Persistent fungal infestation in the body can cause accumulating plaque from immune response, which compounds with other sources that are the root cause of the dementia.

[NickNaraghi]

Hi - this very much parallels my experience with significant mold exposure. We were able to identify mold using a laboratory test of air sample + swab completed by a certified specialist here in the US. Cost about $500. Highly recommend as the effects on our health have been drastic and long-lasting. Best of luck.

[asveikau]

I'm sorry about your mom.

The odor part may be nothing to worry about. When I was a child I noticed an "old lady smell" that many people have. I used to think they had terrible taste in perfume. As my mom got older and I observed her in life, I realized she was starting to smell that way without any effort, and did not before. I don't think she had particularly poor hygiene. I have no idea, but perhaps there is some biological reason for this, that older people produce distinct body odors from younger people.

[asveikau]

Too late to edit but I googled "old lady smell" and here is the ai summary:

> ... aging odor, is a real biological scent caused by the compound 2-nonenal, produced as skin's antioxidants decline with age, creating a greasy, musty, or grassy smell that starts around age 40. While natural and not always a hygiene issue, it can be managed with specialized soaps ...

[meindnoch]

It's just old people smell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_person_smell

[jpster]

Can be targeted by soaps containing persimmon extract. https://miraiclinical.com/pages/nonenal

[canadiantim]

I would very strongly recommend you get her tested for mycotoxins. Vascular dementia / Alzheimer’s symptoms can come from mold exposure alone (type 3 Alzheimer’s). If you find signs of mold exposure, consider the shoemaker protocol or something like Cellcore to bind the mycotoxins or other similar endotoxins out of the gut using things like Cholestyramine, or other binders.

You can use the Mosaic mycotox test, order it directly to your home and then ship the sample to the lab.

[alfonsodev]

Thanks a lot! I'm going to look it up.

[bflesch]

I'm sorry, dementia is horrible and most likely the major reason for the symptoms. Just remember that dementia patients can also forget to turn off the water and cause a spillage they don't remember, or fall down in the shower and spray the whole room with water, or simply forget where the toilet is and urinate somewhere. But nevertheless if it smells weird you should check it, one can have both dementia and mold in the house.

If you can smell that the house is bad for you then it would be easiest to just get her out of the damn house for one or two weeks, maybe to somewhere on the ocean, and see if her symptoms improve significantly.

Check her Vitamin D / iron / B12 levels and supplement with relevant cofactors. Doctors often don't check it here in Germany.

If she drinks tap water do one of the online water tests which checks both for bateria and lead contamination - both for hot and cold water supply. Contamination can be by old pipes or in the water boiler. If lead in water is high also tell the doctor.

If you have access to thermal imaging camera it is a very quick way to figure out water leaks in the wall or places of bad insulation. Maybe a shingle on the roof has moved and rain has been dripping into the ceiling. I bought one for ~350€ and didn't regret it.

As you mention the bathroom check the silicone sealings around the bathtub and see if they are broken and/or moldy. Maybe water leaks behind the shower because the silicone has a defect. Silicone needs to be relaced every couple of years, just rip it out and apply new silicone it is a DIY job with many youtube videos. Wear mask while you are in the house.

You can DIY hack a around-the-clock humidity/temperature monitoring with esphome/homeassistant so you can compare outdoor air vs. indoor air in several rooms and also calculate dew point temperature to see where/if water condensation in the walls occur. It is quite cheap and wifi-based but a lot of fiddling.

Good luck in these stressful times.

[alfonsodev]

Thank you! I think I'll start with the water supply and air humidity monitors, vitamin D (supplementing), iron and B12 shows normal in blood tests.

> get her out of the damn house for one or two weeks Yes, this is my thinking too, I'm trying to solve the logistics of that as well, and hopefully we can do it soon enough.

[bflesch]

Good luck! Maybe do a short holiday with her or simply take her outside for a full day and see if she improves.

You could also take some pictures of the suspected rooms especially the walls/ceiling and the bathtub/shower area and post them online to reddit.com/r/toxicmoldexposure and they can give you feedback. If you dont want to post online feel free to send to my email but I'm a layman without special training in this.

Also there are dogs who can smell mold, not sure how many of them are in Spain but maybe you are lucky and one is close to you.

[snoopen]

It could be "old person smell"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_person_smell

[ethersteeds]

As another top level comment describes, there are very inexpensive hardware store mold testing kits which are essentially just petri dishes you leave open and then mail in for testing.

Also if it is indeed mold, the source is typically some source of moisture. You want to rule out roof leaks and plumbing leaks, and bear in mind that water is incredibly non intuitive and creative in getting from point a to point b.

Another major source of humidity is the human body. Between sweat and respiration, we emit quite a bit of water. This goes into the air and into the bedding and requires ventilation to dissipate. Tightly sealed under-bed areas prevent the mattress from breathing. You might consider stripping the bedding and lifting up the mattress to see how things look.

Consider the rooms' ventilation system. Are the filters new, are the ducts clean? Hiring a professional to check the HVAC system is good routine maintenance.

A final source of moisture leading to mold to consider is condensation. Anywhere warm air meets a much colder surface leads to liquid water and mold. This can mean cracks and poor insulation in exterior walls during winter, or the air conditioning parts during summer. I've seen this combine with the bed-human moisture where under a bed against an exterior wall in a poorly insulated house was staying cold. The bottom of the mattress was moldy.

Mold is insidious. You often need to get into the mindset of a detective, or hire one, to find it. Good luck.