[dota_fanatic]

> "oh but programming is the boring part, now I can focus on the problem solving" or something like that, even though that's precisely what they delegate to the AI.

Take game programming: it takes an immense amount of work to produce a game, problems at multiple levels of abstraction. Programming is only one aspect of it.

Even web apps are much, much more than the code backing them. UIUX runs deep.

I'm having trouble understanding why you think programming is the entirety of the problem space when it comes to software. I largely agree with your colleagues; the fun part for me, at this point in my career, is the architecture, the interface, the thing that is getting solved for. It's nice for once to have line of sight on designs and be able to delegate that work instead of writing variations on functions I've written thousands if not tens of thousands of times. Often for projects that are fundamentally flawed or low impact in the grand scheme of things.

[hackable_sand]

I sense a serious disconnect. I don't go to the dojo once.

[zer00eyz]

If this were another industry...

I don't know why people build houses with nail guns, I like my hammer... Whats the point of building a house if you're not going to pound the nails in yourself.

AI tooling is great at getting all the boiler plate and bootstrapping out of the way... One still has to have a thoughtful design for a solution, to leave those gaps where you see things evolving rather than writing something so concrete that you're scrapping it to add new features.

[zwnow]

You can pick apart a nail gun and see how it exactly works pretty easily. You cant do that with LLMs. Also a nail gun doesn't get less accurate the more nails you shoot one after another, a LLM does get less accurate the more steps it goes through. Also a nail gun shoots straight and not in random directions as that would be considered dangerous. A LLM does shoot into random directions. The same prompt will often yield different results. With a nail gun you can easily pull the plug and you wont have to verify if the nail got placed correctly for an unreasonable amount of time, with LLM output you have to verify everything which takes a lot of time. If an LLM really is such a great tool for you I fear you are not verifying everything it does.

If the boilerplate is that obvious why not just have a blueprint for that and copy and paste it over using a parrot?

Also I dont have a nail gun subscription and the nail gun vendor doesnt get to see what I am doing with it.

[stavros]

You mention a thousand ways the analogy breaks when you take it too far, but you didn't address the actual (correct) point the analogy was making: Some people don't enjoy certain parts of the creative process, and let an LLM handle them. That's all.

[exceptione]

  > Some people don't enjoy certain parts of the creative process, 

Sure

  >  and let an LLM handle them. 

This is probably the disputed part. It is not a different way of development, and as such it should not be presented like that. In software, we can use ready-made components, choose between different strategies, build everything in a low-level language etc. The trade-offs coming with each choice is in principle knowable; the developer is still in control.

LLMs are nothing like that. Using a LLM is more akin to management of outsource software development. On the surface, it might look like you get ready-made components by outsourcing it to them, but there is no contract about any standard, so you have to check everything.

Now if people would present it like "I rather manage an outsourcing process than doing the creative thing" we would have no discussion. But hammers and nails aren't the right analogies.

[mlrtime]

>LLMs are nothing like that. Using a LLM is more akin to management of outsource software development.

You're going to have to tell us your definition of 'Using a LLM' because it is not akin to outsourcing (As I use it).

When I use clause, I tell it the architecture, the libraries, the data flows, everything. It just puts the code down which is the boring part and happens fast.

The time is spent mostly on testing, finding edge cases. The exact same thing if I wrote it all myself.

I don't see how this is hard for people to grasp?

[exceptione]

  > 'Using a LLM' because it is not akin to outsourcing (As I use it).

The things you do with an LLM are precisely what many other IT-firms do when outsourcing to India. Now you might say that this would be bonkers, but that is also why you hear so often that LLM's are the biggest threat to outsourcing instead of software development in general. The feedback cycle with an LLM is much faster.

  > I don't see how this is hard for people to grasp?

I think I understand you, and I think you have/had something else in mind when hearing the term outsourcing.

[stavros]

I don't think people use an LLM and say "I wrote some code", but they do say "I made a thing", which is true. Even if I use an LLM to make a library, and I decide the interfaces, abstractions, and algorithms, it was still me who did all that.

[jason_oster]

> Using a LLM is more akin to management of outsource software development.

This is a straw man argument. You have described one potential way to use an LLM and presented it as the only possible way. Even people who use LLMs will agree with you that your weak argument is easy to cut down.

[zwnow]

An analogy doesnt work if it has thousands of flaws.

[stavros]

You can't stretch it until it breaks and then say "see? It broke, it wasn't perfect". It works for the purpose it was made, and that's all it needed to work for.

[zwnow]

So the analogy is okay if it supports your argument but a counter analogy isn't okay if it doesn't support your argument, got it.

[andy99]

This appears to misunderstand both construction and software development, nail guns and LLMs are not remotely parallel.

You’re comparing a deterministic method of quickly installing a fastener with something that nondeterministically designs and builds the whole building.

[Shog9]

Nail guns are great. For nails that fit into them and spaces they fit into. But if you can't hit a nail with a hammer, you're limited to the sort of tasks that can be accomplished with the nail guns and gun-nails you have with you.

This is the way with many labor-saving devices.

[nosianu]

That's the problem with solving a casually made metaphor instead of sticking to the original question. Since when is AI assisted coding only when you do 100% AI and not a single line yourself? That is only the extreme end! Same with the nails actually. I doubt the builders don't also have and use hammers.

> This is the way with many labor-saving devices.

I think that's more the problem of people using only the extremes to build an argument.

[thefaux]

Sure, but I prefer to work on projects that are fundamentally sound and high impact. Indeed, I have certainly noticed a pattern that very often ai enthusiasts exalt its capabilities to automate work that appears to be of questionable value in the first place, apart from the important second order property of keeping the developer sheltered and fed.

[mlrtime]

Can you tell us these patterns (should be easy) that have questionable value but yet they are being paid well enough for rent/food?