[jessriedel]

I think the (disputable) argument is that, for global stability and equilibrium reasons, there should be a general prohibition against kidnapping/assassination of de facto heads of state, regardless of whether they were legitimately elected or are dictators.

[esafak]

Then nations become stuck with illegitimate leaders. That kind of undesirable stability is called hegemony.

I think these affairs ought to be handled through international bodies. The UN seems to have no mechanism for it.

[jessriedel]

Most of the people who make the argument I described probably believe the UN is the only legitimate body that could make this decision, based on some combination of practicality, historical precedent, and international agreement. And the UN absolutely has a mechanism for doing it (the security council). But one alternatively might argue the UN is broken/dysfunctional/corrupt enough that it can't be relied on despite having the "proper paperwork", just as national democracies can be for national affairs.

[grumple]

Unfortunately the non-democratic nations outnumber the democratic nations at the UN: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

It's why the UN has an obsession with a tiny democracy in the middle east and ignores the multitude of brutal dictatorships which oppress and kill far more people around it and across the globe.

[drumhead]

Who decides when a leader is illegitimate or not?

[DiogenesKynikos]

In this case, the person who decides just said that he wants to control Venezuela's oil.

[woooooo]

Well, as always, who decides the leader is illegitimate? Are the Saudis illegitimate, according the the rubric we put on Maduro?

The UN deliberately has no mechanism for this because it's a talking shop intended to help avoid war by providing a talking venue. That's the whole idea, they're not the world police, there is no such thing. They're a forum.

I'm absolutely not defending any given dictator but history shows that every attempt to remove a dictator "for the greater good" is usually 1) selfishly motivated and 2) backfires horribly.

[jakeydus]

Yeah, ask any Chilean how the installation of Pinochet worked out.

[woooooo]

I'm arguing against the US installing leaders in Latin America, sorry if I was unclear. I happen to have some Chilean friends and stories from them, from the Pinochet era, have helped shape my perspective.

[jakeydus]

Yes, I was just adding some context for any MAGA here that might genuinely think that US intervention in Latin America has ever been a good thing.

[MisterMower]

Good for South America? Or good for the USA?

[jakeydus]

Yes.

To phrase it more completely, regime change and general destabilization of Latin American countries has definitely led to the immigration crisis in the United States now. Lack of stable governments and economies has absolutely exacerbated the production and transportation of drugs into the United States. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been killed or disappeared by US-empowered gangs or governments.

Now that said, I don't know what the world would look like had their right to self-determination been preserved. Nobody knows. But as a general rule, countries whose power structures were not toyed with by colonial powers do better than countries whose power structures were toyed with.

[flobosg]

The country remains polarized, so the answers might surprise you.

[ModernMech]

Also 3) not ever about the the greater good, that’s a pretext

[nkmnz]

How exactly did the removal of Hitler backfire?

[woooooo]

I think WW2 had a little bit more justification than whatever this is.

[nkmnz]

Then maybe you should rephrase your comment, because this is what I've replied to:

> every attempt to remove a dictator "for the greater good" is usually 1) selfishly motivated and 2) backfires horribly.

[andsoitis]

Imagine if Hitler was removed before... Instead, foreign powers favored appeasement and trade; conservative elites thought they could control him, Nazi propaganda and terror consolidated power, and Germans were disillusioned with democracy after WW1.

[woooooo]

I shouldn't bite but are you seriously saying Maduro had Hitler-like potential to ignite global war if we didn't stop him?

[komali2]

I'm still not convinced removing Hitler before his invasion of Poland would have been a good idea, it seems possible someone like Himmler would be just as capable of picking up Mein Kampf as an ideological framework to continue imperialism and kick off genocide. "Look what the Jews and communists did when we tried to stand up to them, they killed the leader of our movement," etc etc.

Once the genocide started though I do thing all considerations, including national stability and continuity, are lower priority than ending the genocide as fast as possible.

[astrea]

It’s quite reductionist to compare this Maduro situation to WW2.

[komali2]

Genocide being the exception, perhaps.

Basically, "leave it to the population to sort out themselves, even if they've lost the democratic means to do so," up until a government has gone so insane it's massacring its people, or other people.

[nkmnz]

So we should have done a much bigger intervention in Syria, much earlier? We should intervene in Sudan right now? We should finally intervene in Russia where they slaughter their own children and Ukrainians in a genocidal war of aggression? We should finally intervene in Palestine and destroy Hamas (and in Iran and destroy their Mullah-sponsors) who've committed a genocide on October 7th, killing thousands of Israelis and ten thousands of Palestinians?

[DecoySalamander]

From a purely moral standpoint, my answer would be "yes, absolutely." Unfortunately, most of these interventions are not practically possible. Taking out a dictator in US's backyard is so much easier (and easier to do bloodlessly) than any of these examples.

[komali2]

Yes, perhaps, as well as Netanyahu to stop his genocide of the Palestinians.

[close04]

General rules don’t apply to superpowers or the countries they protect. China, US, Russia get to do whatever their military or economic power affords them, unprovoked aggression, war crimes, terror acts.

There are general rules against war crimes and they still happen day after day, under flimsy excuses. Bombed a hospital or a wedding party? There was a suspected terrorist there. White phosphorus over civilians? It was just for the smoke screen. Overthrew a government overseas? Freedom for those poor people.

[michaelt]

Right but "Don't kidnap/assassinate the enemy leaders" is often a good policy even when nobody will enforce that rule on you by force.

For example if your country is subject to a terror bombing campaign, it's very tempting to assassinate the one leader who had the power/respect/authority to order the attacks to start but often they're also the only leader who can order the attacks to stop

In the 1970s/1980s presumably the UK could have had IRA leaders Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness assassinated. But it sure turned out to be useful, in the late 1990s peace process, that the IRA had identifiable, living leaders who could engage in negotiation, sign an agreement, and get the bomb makers to stop making bombs.

[wiseowise]

Russia is a regional power, though.

[close04]

The definition is probably not very precise. They started a war of aggression and every other country is tiptoeing around them. Iraq was also a regional power and got a very different treatment. So the “power” line isn’t so clear.

China on the other hand doesn’t get visibly involved in almost any remote conflict and they’re obviously a (if not the) superpower.

[wiseowise]

Russia has neither industrial nor economic base to project power outside of its sphere of influence. The only reason why everyone tiptoes around them is because they’re world’s gas station that attacked world’s bread basket. And largest stockpile of nukes.

China has everything that Russia lacks and more.

[close04]

When you have no power you get stomped. That “only” reason is (part of) the superpower.

China was another example of superpower “style”. Not the Russian or US “let’s invade this country” or “let’s kidnap that leader”.

[andsoitis]

> , there should be a general prohibition against kidnapping/assassination of de facto heads of state, regardless of whether they were legitimately elected or are dictators.

Since ideas don't execute themselves, who would you pick to enforce this prohibition, never mind even getting 100%(?) alignment from countries what the conditions are for "kidnap", "assassination", and "de facto head of state"?

[1718627440]

Public opinion?

[komali2]

Of who? If the PRC invades Taiwan and starts brutally oppressing the people here, you ostensibly have 1.3 billion people in support, plus possibly PRC allied, a non insignificant number of tankies abroad...

[1718627440]

If people would still default to boycotting war-mongering states, the PRC would have a serious economic problem afterwards. Since, the relevant states (EU) are already in a (mild) crisis, they messed up there foreign economic diversity and individualism is all the rage now, there won't be.

[komali2]

> the PRC would have a serious economic problem afterwards

Don't get me wrong, I live in Taiwan so it's not something I want to have happen, but the PRC seems focused on localizing its economy as much as possible, so it may be that if that time comes, it doesn't matter if other countries boycott it. Didn't seem to matter that much to Russia in the Ukraine situation, or at least, it didn't stop them.

[1718627440]

> the PRC seems focused on localizing its economy as much as possible

If they would actually do that, they would loose their threat model to keep the EU in check.

[andsoitis]

> Public opinion?

Opinion, public or not, cannot enforce anything.

[1718627440]

It can be what forces people to do something or to resign?

[jessriedel]

The UN security council is one reasonable and popular choice, although it has lots of problems.

But enforcement is not even my point. I'm referring to a moral principle.

[IMTDb]

Companies can become « too big to fail » and dictatord can become « too powerful to fall » ?

[Muromec]

We are not hovever optimizing for stabilitybanymore in Kali Yuga that we are living through

[Sporktacular]

It's not about what should be the case. It IS the case. If we should decide to change that it won't work if one government unilaterally decides who stays or who goes for obvious reasons. Last month we saw Trump prostrate himself before MBS, who is apparently totally legitimate.