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by mkleczek 168 days ago
The theory is that in both cases (ie. with and without tariffs) shipyards are going to die sooner or later. It is better for the society to let them die as soon as possible and direct efforts to things we are better at while taking advantage of cheaper ships produced elsewhere.
2 comments
etempleton 168 days ago
Some industries are of national security or other strategic value, so protecting them even if that means some stagnation is desirable over the offshoring of said industry.
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mkleczek 168 days ago
The question is: how do you define "national security" and "other strategic value"? At the end of the day both really mean economic interest. Especially in case of US.

So if someone says "national security" is above economic interest of US, I would say these people mean _their_ economic interest is above economic interest of US and use both terms as a cover.

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SR2Z 168 days ago
Insofar as the country being conquered and Americans being slaughtered wholesale would be against our economic interests lol

There are clear national security reasons for the government to prop up shipbuilding and semiconductors.

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mkleczek 168 days ago
> Insofar as the country being conquered and Americans being slaughtered wholesale would be against our economic interests lol > There are clear national security reasons for the government to prop up shipbuilding and semiconductors.

Are you saying countries without shipbuilding facilities or not producing semicondutors are being conquered and their citizens being slaughtered?

I'd say that is fear mongering done by the people doing business on "national security".

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sfifs 166 days ago
> Are you saying countries without shipbuilding facilities or not producing semicondutors are being conquered and their citizens being slaughtered?

Yes that is a clear risk. For most of human history, powerful leaders have unleashed violence on their neighbors to increase their wealth and prestige. For about 70 years, the cold war balance prevented very catastrophic wars between powerful nations but we now seem to be having an atavistic throw back of powerful nations being led by expansionist leaders. You either need to create your own manufacturing capacity or be at the mercy of others.

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SR2Z 166 days ago
You can call it fearmongering but I can point to the whole of human history and tell you that not only has it happened, at a certain point it is inevitable. I can point at Ukraine, right now, as an example of what happens when one country appears much weaker than an aggressive neighbor.

The United States is the greatest power the world has ever seen. While the oceans protect us, the truth is that even the White House was once burned down in a war.

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expedition32 168 days ago
There's not much economic interest in losing 100 billion dollars trying to keep shipyards going.

There are no customers who want an oil tanker built in the US. Or Europe.

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etempleton 167 days ago
The economic interest is the US ability to as rapidly as possible convert those shipyards to military shipyards during a large scale prolonged war. The US did not make (relatively) many ships before WW2 and then during WW2 was briefly the largest ship builder in the world.
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mkleczek 167 days ago
> The economic interest is the US ability to as rapidly as possible convert those shipyards to military shipyards during a large scale prolonged war.

Nah, that doesn't add up. US needs _ships_ and SOTA military equipment to make sure that any military conflict is as short as possible (ie. US wins). Losing money on unused production capability does not make sense because in case of prolonged conflict there is time to build the capability (as it happened during WWII).

In reality, what you call "prolonged military conflict", is nothing more than normal international competition. One could even argue US is in prolonged military conflict since WWII. In which case making rational decisions based on hard economic criteria (ie. not losing money) is the key to success.

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randyrand 168 days ago
just don't outsource your means of defense!
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mkleczek 168 days ago
With current military technology it is not really possible, is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdppYYfQJgg describes it really well.

So the question is more about what part of means of defense you outsource. And what parts of means of defense are outsourced by your enemies.

You don't want to base your defense on inferior shipbuilding capabilities, do you?

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