[mjg2]

With due respect, this comment conveys a position of privilege and surviver's bias. I, like you, eschewed online rules as a minor and I luckily benefitted from this time in my expertise. I was lucky. I didn't run into predators when using TF2, Runescape, or MySpace, but that doesn't mean the threat wasn't validated on with persons (children at the time) that fell through the cracks.

The story outlined, one of a child prodigy solo-navigating the gritty online world of pre-2000's, is old and tired. An active parent can support a child at all ages safely in these "hacker" moments that are described without giving them un-reined access to tools. A parent should be able to ask "how was your day today?" and get a truthful answer about online activity, just like the same question being asked at the end of the school day. It's out of curiosity and protection, and from a nurtured relationship.

[PaulHoule]

I was one of those kids. I got a 300 baud modem the year after Wargames came out. It was a whole different world.

My wife and I disagreed about letting my son have my old desktop replacement laptop at a young age. Of course I said yes, based on my own experience, but my wife turned out to be right in the end. He got into some pretty dark places and the toxic relationships he developed with other people his age were bad enough and the trouble he got into was real and not hypothetical.

He's turned it around and is getting the support to do well relative to his Gen Z peers, but it took some harrowing experiences to get there.

[steve_adams_86]

My wife was right too. My kids ended up being unable to manage their device use at all, they developed seriously bad habits, lied and deceived extensively to gain access to devices, and repeatedly sacrificed relationships and trust for more screen time. There were years there where I thought surely they'd click with it and develop better habits, make better choices (with our guidance), and so on. Abstinence could be worse, right? Some exposure would be helpful and lead to useful conversations and so on.

The Internet, Internet access, and apps have changed since I was a kid. Despite their time on digital devices along with my efforts to teach them, my kids have no idea how computers work or how to use them very effectively. The skills they have developed to gain access to them were largely social engineering and lying. They exclusively waste time and brain cells when they're on screens.

One of my kids essentially can't have access to devices because he'll burn hours into the night playing really, really stupid games and watching porn. This is ALL he wants to do on phones or computers. Sometimes he will window shop.

You might think this is largely due to my failure to have insight into what my kids are doing and limiting access correctly, but that isn't the case. At first we were somewhat lenient and figured if they accessed things they shouldn't, we'd see it and have conversations. That was very early on. The conversations did nothing. I began putting severe restrictions on devices quite quickly because problems became evident quickly. I was a bit naive about it at first, my wife was not. We clashed a bit, but then device theft and social engineering started and I quickly aligned with her. Since then, many years ago, very little access has been on account of us not protecting devices properly. He is extremely good at gaining access when he's not supposed to, and extremely good at hiding it. It's like having an addict in the house.

He has no future in computers. He doesn't care about computers at all. He is incredibly compulsive, self-harming, and freely harms his relationships to get what he wants. This has been going on for about 5 years; he's 16 now, and I'm pretty scared for when he's out on his own and doesn't have anyone to protect him from himself. I think there will be some brutal lessons. Lost jobs, lost relationships, lost confidence and self esteem. I'm not looking forward to it.

I have no idea why I turned sneaking onto computers into a career rather than rotted away like they do. I wanted to learn to program. I was curious. My kids want to play NBA 2k and watch porn. That's about it.

[ronsor]

The Internet now mostly consists of short-form garbage and dark patterns.

Also,

> He is incredibly compulsive, self-harming, and freely harms his relationships to get what he wants.

This probably indicates deeper psychological issues that aren't solely related to Internet addiction.

[anothereng]

You were born in an era where the internet wasn't as addictive as it is nowadays.

[selectively]

Heroin is addictive. Physical compulsion is addiction. What you are talking about is not addiction. It shares some elements, but no one is breaking into cars so they can scroll Instagram.

[sjducb]

They are lying and stealing from their parents to “scroll instagram”

[selectively]

And the parents feel entitled to the truth...why? Children are not property.

What specifically do you mean by 'stealing'?

[steve_adams_86]

Exactly. And what worries me is that they are essentially greasing the groove for these synapses, growing the neural network around deception and dishonesty. If they get into gambling in 5 years or so and happen to have a partner, they will already be somewhat adapted and practiced in hiding this activity quite effectively rather than seeking and accepting help. It's worrying. It's all foundational to very self-destructive habits from my perspective.

[michaelmrose]

If your kid lies you might not get a truthful answer to that question in person or online.

You are actually expecting a lot from devices that you never had in the real world in the first place in order to mitigate a risk that is very scary but less likely to kill them than drugs and alcohol, swimming, bad driving, biking, getting hit by a car whilst walking, getting shot, or suicide.

People are freaking out over stranger danger not because it is by the numbers prevalent but because they feel like they can control it then find out the controls suck.

What if I started Bikesafe an always online dash cam / coach for your rider where AI would identify unsafe behaviour and coach your kid and virtually eliminate bike deaths. Would you feel more safe?

What if you read again and again that it didn't work because of how many accidents are caused by drivers or momentary mistakes.

Would you feel only as unsafe as before or worse?

[mjg2]

First, I'm responding the more (politely) trivial remarks.

> drugs and alcohol, swimming, bad driving, biking, getting hit by a car whilst walking, getting shot, or suicide.

These are false equivalences-- when has a pool try to groom a child over the span of 3 years?

> What if I started Bikesafe an always online dash cam / coach for your rider where AI would identify unsafe behaviour and coach your kid and virtually eliminate bike deaths. Would you feel more safe?

This is wholesale the wrong approach. This is the parent absconding responsibility, which is my driving point of the problem.

Now to the main point:

> You are actually expecting a lot from devices that you never had in the real world in the first place ...

I'm not expecting anything from my devices because machines cannot be held accountable for human choices; a gun cannot be held accountable for being misused. The internet is a powerful tool and users should understand the ramifications of certain actions.

> If your kid lies you might not get a truthful answer to that question in person or online.

That's a parenting moment that one should relish retrospectively. To teach them good morals and values, to remind them that you love them, and that lying about safety processes can be very dangerous.

[margalabargala]

Arguably this can increase the risk of death by suicide, quite a bit.

[mystraline]

In reality, the whole "stranger danger" is way overblown and always has been. Most of the time, sexual predators are going to be either family or friends.

https://rainn.org/facts-statistics-the-scope-of-the-problem/...

93% of victims under 18 know their abuser.

Sure there's 7% thats not, but a significant supermajority is family/friends. 59% were acquaintances, and 34% are family.

Edit: seriously, -1 cause I link to actual facts, rather than shitty emotional outbursts? Family and friends of family have always been the major list of suspects for child sex abuse. They're the ones who have time and access.

But somehow linking to cited facts is -1 central. Sigh.

[hamdingers]

First, that statistic sources a study from 2000, a time when zero children had smartphones and approximately zero children played online games.

Second, even if the statistic wasn't obsolete, a groomed kid knows their abuser by definition.

I understand what you're trying to get at and suspect you're right, but the comment does not make your case well.

[SkyPuncher]

Keep in mind, this study is only physical sexual abuse.

Internet has opened up an entire world of virtual sexual abuse.