[KirinDave]

I'd like to actually see some evidence that Meditation helps people sustain that state of mind. Because I hear people trot it out a lot but I've never seen it backed up by hard data.

I think meditation may have benefits, but the idea that it helps you "build up willpower" has always been one I thought we could actually measure, and yet I've never seen a good study of it.

[roqetman]

I used to also wait for all the data before I tried things like this. Then due to "reasons" I actually started meditation, daily, for just 10 minutes. I've now been doing it for 3 years and I have no data to give you, but the effects on me are subtle yet profound. If you can spare 10 minutes a day you still won't have any data, but you'll have an answer.

[KirinDave]

I am here to tell you the placebo effect is nearly impossible to spot from the inside out. Your brain is just not wired to pierce the veil of selection bias without a lot of effort.

You are saying, "Doing X made me feel good." But I am saying that nearly anything in that X spot might do the same. It's just the way the human mind works.

In testing out Piracetam on myself I've been especially aware of this, because even though I _know_ it can happen I still perceive effects that my testing strategy eliminates as just flights of fancy and imagination.

If meditation really is an amazing wonder practice you claim it is then it should hold up to scrutiny no problem. You can keep doing it, and I might even try it. That doesn't mean we should just pretend all the things this article are saying are true.

[acous]

Fresh, unprocessed placebo effect, direct from the source... delicious :)

[aneth4]

Placebo effect has no meaning in this context. Placebo effects are caused by mind rather than a substance. In this case, the entire treatment is in the mind.

There are many, many, many studies on the benefits and effects of meditation. If you haven't found any, it's because you are not looking.

[KirinDave]

"Placebo effect has no meaning in this context. Placebo effects are caused by mind rather than a substance. In this case, the entire treatment is in the mind."

If you're a dualist, then okay. But I'm not. And since the mot compelling evidence of the effect of meditation so far presented involves structural changes to the brain, I think you just talked yourself out of a case.

"There are many, many, many studies on the benefits and effects of meditation. If you haven't found any, it's because you are not looking."

Within the context of improving your ability to withstand distraction? Most everything linked here is almost invariably about structural alterations which are surely significant, but not tied to any specific effect.

[aneth4]

You may not be a dualist, but you sound like a negativist. It's nobody's job here to convince you of the benefits of meditation beyond the reams of research out there that for some reason you question.

Regardless, the structural changes to the brain are one of the effects, not the cause. The cause is of those structural changes is mental.

The goal here is changes that are highly subjective and personal. If meditation helps people, that is its goal, so to complain there is no evidence is nonsensical.

I guarantee you if you learn to meditate and master a form successfully, you will not be in HN forums demanding evidence.

Transcendental Meditation, as cultish as it is, is one of the most researched forms of meditation and there is a massive amount of research on its benefits. Go have a ball with that.

[KirinDave]

> You may not be a dualist, but you sound like a negativist. It's nobody's job here to convince you of the benefits of meditation beyond the reams of research out there that for some reason you question.

"Negativist." Ha.

Likewise, no one gets a free pass on claiming scientific backing on National Skeptics Day without at least something to back it up. You can believe whatever you like! I'm just pointing out that the article does little to source its claims while making a lot of prescriptive suggestions.

> The goal here is changes that are highly subjective and personal. If meditation helps people, that is its goal, so to complain there is no evidence is nonsensical. > I guarantee you if you learn to meditate and master a form successfully, you will not be in HN forums demanding evidence.

Yes I suppose I might be more prone to selection bias and personal investment if I sink years of my life into something. I'm pretty touchy about coffee that way, I suppose.

When you say stuff like, "You have to try it to understand," it's a huge red flag that suggests you're about to try and sucker someone.

[im3w1l]

http://www.reddit.com/r/meditationpapers