[matusp]

Just to play devil's advocate, you're okay with forcing a criminal to sit in a room for the rest of their life, but you're not okay if they also have to work for society during that timeframe. What is the main argument why the first case is okay and the second is not.

[devsda]

Because it creates perverse incentive for government to put more people in prison.

Right now the punishment is confinement. When you add effectively unpaid labour in prison as part of acceptable punishment, you're also paving the way for a future where unpaid labor as a standalone punishment is also acceptable. That's just slavery by law.

[blobbers]

Outside in society, I have to work to pay my rent, to pay for my food.

Inside a prison, should they not have a similar responsibility? They commit a crime and as such are held in stasis? Should they not at least carry the burden of themselves

[vlovich123]

The problem is that there’s double dipping and profiteering. The prison company gets paid by the government for the same it costs the government to house prisoners and then contracts out the prison labor to private companies for basically pure profit. Private prisons’ ability to sell slave labor is a perverse system. The government doing so is at least marginally less but still exploitative in that it robs prisoners of their humanity and feeling like they’re part of the social fabric. Pay them a living wage for that effort and they start to learn that there’s respect and reward that come from being integrated in society.

[devsda]

Its a fair point but its probably not practical.

I don't think there's enough jobs in prisons that need physical labour where they can cover the costs. You would then have to train them in useful skills but incompetence is not a crime so you cannot penalize those who "cannot learn/do" skilled work.

Other alternative is to make them work the same job they did outside but that is a slippery slope with lot of potential for abuse.

[navigate8310]

Apologies for my ignorance, exactly what kind of jobs do prisoners work inside that benefit the society outside?

[serf]

the US has had lots of programs where labor can effectively be bought or contracted from prisoner sites by private companies.

I know of prison ran machine shops that were doing die-casting and tool production. I also heard of one (didn't see) that was doing basket weaving for a floral/arrangement company.

these are shallow 'social benefits'; but the companies were privately owned.

I guess the classic example is license plate pressing.. I guess that's a social good? I don't know if it goes on at all anymore.

[ndriscoll]

Why do they have to stay inside? Have a chain gang trim overgrown weeds along roads, fill in potholes, clean leaves, clean and repair sidewalks, plant shrubs, etc.

[hvb2]

> Because it creates perverse incentive for government to put more people in prison.

Except for some rare cases, I think you'll find that the cost of keeping an inmate in prison for a day makes it that you never break even

[thelock85]

Or the taxpayers foot the bill for keeping the inmate in prison while private interests (including but not limited to private prisons and select contractors) take additional profit off the unpaid labor instead of passing savings to the consumer

[reed1234]

Breaking even is more attractive than debt for a cash-strapped city

[matusp]

So if we could set it up in a way where there is no slippery slope, you would be okay with it?

[tyre]

Not really a perverse incentive. The government isn’t making any money here. They’re paying someone from their own pocket only to take it away again?

At that point it really is just slavery, which they can already do as protected in the US Constitution.

(I’m not arguing for this. I agree with restitution and believe that sentences longer than a certain point are also pointless and a net negative to society.)

[devsda]

> The government isn’t making any money here.

Hypothetically let's say govt is allowed to use unpaid labour outside menial tasks and the prison system is setup in a way to efficiently utilize the skills of their labour pool and is allowed to outsource their skills to private entities at attractive rate for covering prison costs (i.e. more money left for govt spending)

E.g. tradesmen employed on their related jobs. A programmer employed in software jobs or a technician "loaned" to a nearby lab etc.

Don't you think the local/state governments will then have incentive to fill their pool with "missing" talent according to the job requirements.

[vincnetas]

thats why for some prison systems main goal is not punishment but rehabilitation. i think this is scandinavian approach.

"The stated goal of the Swedish prison system is to create a safer society by reducing recidivism and rehabilitating offenders rather than focusing solely on punishment. This is achieved through humane treatment, education, and reintegration programs designed to prepare prisoners for life after release."

[llmslave2]

Probably for the same reason that it's generally seen as less intrusive to prevent someone from doing something, compared to forcing them to do something.