[impure-aqua]

There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.

It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.

As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.

[dangus]

Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition.

macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup!

Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?

Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers.

I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid.

Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case.

Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available.

You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer.

https://github.com/TamtamHero/fw-fanctrl

You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience.

You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.

[pjmlp]

> Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?

All the time?

Some of us have embraced IDE and graphical tooling in desktop systems since the 1990, after computers with desktop environments became affordable and we weren't stuck with text only interfaces.

[dangus]

I use a graphical IDE. That still means my hands are on the keyboard 90% of the time. Graphical IDEs still use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.

And like I said, the trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the world’s best trackpad.

To reiterate further, macOS demands you use the trackpad for gestures that aren’t demanded in other operating systems. They want you to buy their $150 trackpad even though you’re sitting at a desk and could easily use a $20-50 third party mouse.

[impure-aqua]

I also am a programmer, and I care about all of these things on my laptop. I used my trackpad to click reply on this webpage, that's not a rare thing!

If you ever have a meeting where multiple people huddle around a laptop, that uses speakers, webcam, and microphone, and the MacBook does so much better in that scenario. We have interrupted meetings to swap from a Framework 16 (old CTO's laptop) to my MacBook Pro because participants simply couldn't hear those of us slightly further away from the laptop!

Zonal dimming is an advantage whenever you have black areas on the screen, and good fan tuning is an advantage if you want to compile some changes during a meeting without thinking "this task will turn my laptop into a jet engine and distract everyone else".

If you don't care about these things, then you can find way cheaper devices than the Framework that are cost competitive on core specs. Let's get some Framework pricing as a datum, Framework will sell me the AI 350 and 2.8K display for $1939CAD, it has no RAM, no SSD, no charger, no ports... if I add 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, charger, and 2xUSB-C, 1xHDMI, 1xUSB-A, we're looking at $2403CAD.

If I don't care about the less measurable components, why would I not buy something like this $400USD (~$550CAD) laptop [1] another poster in this thread found which also has an AI 350, 16GB RAM, and a 512GB SSD? I can buy four of these laptops for the price of the Framework and still have some cash left over! If I need more RAM I'm sure I can find a similarly cheapo laptop with a SODIMM by actually googling myself.

I think the reality is both you and I do care about these other parts, just maybe with a different minimum acceptable quality. But even inside PC land Framework is not competitive. Higher-end X1 Carbons have haptic trackpads at the same price point as Framework is offering diving boards. Across the market there are OLEDs for less money than Framework is charging for LCDs.

Personally, I don't care about trackpad alone so much, merely that the pointing device situation be acceptable. When programming, I type a lot and then do a few small mouse actions (e.g. expand some segment on a docs webpage, or mouse around some GUI to test the feature I have been building out). With a haptic trackpad, I can move my thumb from the spacebar to the top of the trackpad which is just below it and do my mouse actions without significant hand movement. This is not possible with a diving board design as the top of the trackpad is not clickable. A pointing stick is absolutely an acceptable solution to this problem, but Framework also does not offer those, again despite price-competitive offerings from, say, Lenovo offering it.

Let's briefly look at Lenovo's website. I can spec out a ThinkPad P14s Gen 6 here in Canada from Lenovo's website [2] with a 120Hz OLED screen, trackpoint, Ryzen AI 350, 1x16GB SODIMM and 512GB NVMe for $1529CAD, that's a fully working computer for less than the barebones Framework, with a better display and pointing device situation! I can use the empty second SODIMM port with a single 48GB stick and get 64GB, and stick the NVMe in an external enclosure to use as an external SSD, and deck it out with whatever market-rate drive and RAM I can get.

The Framework is broadly uncompetitive even if you won't consider a MacBook.

[1] https://slickdeals.net/f/18984394-hp-omnibook-5-16-fhd-ips-r...

[2] https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...

[dangus]

Like I said, Framework 13 trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the best in the world. It’s not any worse than the traditional trackpads that are on Lenovo systems (but I’d love to try the haptic one on the X9 Aura Edition).

This $2400 CAD price point is pure fantasy to me because that’s not what I paid. I paid $800 for a DIY system then about $200 or $300 for RAM and storage (USD).

The ThinkPad P14 you specced out is not significantly more competitive. I’ll use my US website prices to compare. The base model starts at $1044. It comes with a Ryzen AI 340 which is a far worse chip for integrated graphics than my 7640u, it’s like 60% of the speed of the 7640u graphics. The display in that model is the base model display, not a 120Hz OLED, similar specs to the Framework. You have to add $10 for fingerprint reader then I have to still buy a new stick of RAM and a bigger SSD.

I also tried a Lenovo T14 in store and felt like it had way too much deck flex. I had no idea if the P series is the same but Lenovo felt plasticky. Framework is an aluminum chassis and the keyboard deck flex is about as good as it gets before you sign your life away to Apple.

The $500 cheapo spec laptops aren’t as nice as the Framework! I swear FW haters just insist that the hardware quality is budget tier and it must suck since it’s modular and that it’s not a premium-class system. But that is just not true. The Lenovo T14 felt cheap in comparison. If I get a $500 cheapo laptop I’m getting even more plastic and flex.

The ThinkPad T14 keyboard was not good enough for me. The Framework 13 has better keyboard. I like it better than my previous MacBook Pro! A $500 cheapo laptop isn’t going to satisfy me there.

In terms of Linux support, Framework is premium. The company itself focuses on it more than Lenovo. Hardware firmware gets updated automatically within Linux, and there’s a dedicated community surrounding it, which you won’t get on some random $500 HP laptop.

Maybe Lenovo offers an equivalent value or sometimes even a better value when there’s a sale. For my needs Apple couldn’t even get close to the kind of price I paid for what I got.

One more sidenote, you brought up buying the power supply separate, which I didn’t have to do because I already own an Anker Prime charger that I’ve used with my previous MacBook for being a superior travel solution compared to OEM. My monitor on my desk already provides USB-C PD. So really, if I buy a laptop that includes one it’s just e-waste that I don’t need.