[testing22321]

I’ve always found this line of thinking to match up with drivers of old Land Rovers.

The thinking goes they are brilliant because they are so easy to repair and parts are easy to source globally.

While that’s true, I much prefer to drive vehicles that don’t need repairs.

[Tade0]

I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle - especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard despite everything being still in warranty.

Specific issues by laptop:

1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years.

2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years.

3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years.

I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work.

With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.

[testing22321]

Used mba bought in 2013, taken right around Africa in a 4x4 through 35 countries, sold in 2019. Never an issue.

Used mbp bought in 2019, taken through a dozen countries in a 4x4, sold in 2022. Never an issue.

Used M1 mba bought in 2022, taken to twenty countries, never an issue.

I do heavy photo and 4K video editing, light dev work, writing, web.

I restart at most once a year.

[Tade0]

Guess my normal usage is more destructive than your trips. The main driver of wear in my case was always commuting with the device and thus also plugging/unplugging things several times a day.

Also if you hold a 2kg closed laptop with one hand - you're going to have pressure marks and I learned that the hard way.

Anyway, all around me people have always had hardware issues - also with Apple products. I recall replacing the battery in a late 2011 MBP because it was swollen as it failed from age alone.

Bottom line is that I believe you, I just think you're an outlier.

[cosmic_cheese]

Similar here. When I trade in my old MacBooks after 4-6 years of use they function like new and look almost new, and I do plenty of moderate-heavy dev work and traveling.

I have a nearly 5 year old ThinkPad that's in great condition too. Never needed a repair, though it's had a couple of spells where it acted funky that resolved themselves.

[commandersaki]

In Australia, all of these things would be returned for a full refund under Australia Consumer Law as a major fault, there is no time limit, just expectations of a reasonable consumer.

[sokoloff]

I can’t imagine trying to sell into the Australian market if a failing power socket after seven years is cause for a full refund.

“My laptop is really slow.”

“Don’t you think the power supply socket is faulty? <wink />”

[commandersaki]

Would really have to come down what a reasonable consumer would expect; that is part subjective and part objective. If you could show an experience of having laptops for various lifetimes, some extending beyond 7 years some below, none having a failing power socket, that might be sufficient to convince that it is a major fault. If it is a cheap laptop maybe you don't have a chance, but a premium product you could argue that it failed to be durable.

(I read this as the power socket in the laptop, not so much the power supply, obviously you'll have less luck there.)

[Ritewut]

There is no such thing as a vehicle that doesn't need repairs. Just ones you can't repair yourself.

[unethical_ban]

The idea is that repairability and reliability are sometimes at odds.

I owned a number of 90s trucks and though it was easier to get into the engine, I had to do it well before 100k miles sometimes. Meanwhile I have a 2010s Japanese vehicle that is at 200k with only an alternator replaced.

[cosmic_cheese]

Similarly there's now a few models of EV known to make it well past the 100k mark while needing little to no maintenance aside from replacing consumables. Most people aren't knowledgeable or well-equipped enough to work on those, though.

[Ritewut]

This sounds like correlation not causation.

[Xss3]

It is and it isnt. The more goals a design has the harder it is to achieve all of them well.

[tempsaasexample]

True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your hobby of working on cars.

My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.

[SV_BubbleTime]

It would also be apt if the handover cost $10,000 but the engine cost $9000.

My framework 13 is OKAY. But the reality of it is the economics just don’t make sense with their pricing.

The biggest thing people can comment on the keyboard is easily replaceable. That’s cool and I love the idea, but any vendor could do that part.

[Ritewut]

I had a Framework mainboard die and I was able to replace it myself with a free replacement they sent me without need to throw away the laptop. The economics make sense when you consider they don't get the priority for chips or the volume discounts that a company like Dell would get from AMD or Intel. They are getting scraps and doing what they can to make it work.

[SV_BubbleTime]

Is that a viable business model though? That they’ll always be a niche supplier with low-vokume issues, seems like a tough market.

In fact, I think Dell or HP or Other could demolish Framework in a 1/2 second by offering a line that was even 50% the offering. By focusing on replaceable screens, keyboard, and standing the chassis for multiple boards and selling some parts they dry up FW’s moat with little effort.

[patmorgan23]

That would be an AWESOME market development. Not great for framework but if they end up folding because larger manufacturers adopt most sustainable/interchangeable practices thats a win and I'm happy my framework purchase help prove/promote that market change.

[gessha]

The same companies that can’t make a proper website to sell their products? Please. Framework’s got it in the bag.

I don’t remember the number of times I typed dell.com or Lenovo.com, looked for a replacement for my 10-year old XPS, and came out extremely frustrated with the experience. Not to mention the recent copy-paste nonsense from Dell with their Pro/Pro Max laptop offerings.

Good display, decent CPU, a battery that lasts a day, and Linux support - that’s all that I ask for. Outside of Apple(bar Linux support) are there any manufacturers that offer that?

[unethical_ban]

That last sentence is just not true. Have an end user easily order and replace a MacBook Air keyboard, or easily upgrade their MacBook screen direct from the website.

[rowanG077]

The problem is of course that no vehicles/devices as of now exist that are indestructible