[muricula]

Usually people are talking about race conditions. When you say contrived you're thinking races conditions are difficult to win and unrealistic but attackers who have a lot of money on the line spend the time to win all sorts of wild race conditions consistently.

[websiteapi]

is there actually a programming language that makes race conditions impossible (I am not being facetious, I actually do not know)? if the existence of races makes a language unsafe, then aren't all languages unsafe?

[Yoric]

It's not that race conditions are generally memory-unsafe. The same race conditions would not be memory-unsafe in, say, Java or Python.

Go has a memory model that basically guarantees that the language is memory-safe except with a few marked "unsafe" functions or in case of race conditions involving interfaces or arrays. It's pretty easy to come up with an example of such a race condition that will cause reads or writes from/to unpredictable memory addresses. I imagine it's quite feasible to turn this into reads or writes from/to crafted memory addresses, which would be a mean to defeat pretty much any security measure implemented in the language.

The Rust community caters to people who are a bit obsessive about safety (including myself) and Rust developers tend to consider this a bug in the design of the Go language (there are a few, albeit much harder to achieve, issues that are vaguely comparable in Rust and they are considered bugs in the current design of Rust). The Go community tends to attract people who are more interested in shipping than in guarantees, and Go developers who are aware of this issue tend not care and assume that this is never going to happen in practice (which may or may not be true, I haven't checked).

[torginus]

>is there actually a programming language that makes race conditions impossible

It'd be very hard to make something that offers that guarantee in the real world. One of the most common, IRL exploitable race conditions are ones that involve multiple services/databases, and even if your programming language would have such a feature, your production system would not.

[awesome_dude]

> is there actually a programming language that makes race conditions impossible

To my knowledge, no.

> if the existence of races makes a language unsafe, then aren't all languages unsafe?

Are we talking about "data races" or "race conditions" One can lead to the other, but race conditions are a much bigger set.

AIUI It's impossible for any language level controls to prevent any and all race conditions, because some are happening outside of the binary/process/computer.

Data races, OTOH are almost trivial to protect against - a contestable thing must have a guard that ensures a writer has exclusive access to that thing for the duration of the write.

Some languages do this with mutually exclusive locks (mutex/semaphore/go channels), some languages/paradigms do this by never having shareable objects (Functional Programming/Pass by Value), and some (Rust) are doing this with the compile time checks and firm rules on a single writer.

Edit: Never having shareable objects should really be "never allowing an outside thread/coroutine/process/whatever mutate your copy of an object" meaning that an object is immutable to them, and they have to have a copy that they can mutate to their heart's content. They have to communicate any changes back, and then you choose whether to integrate those changes, or not

[muricula]

Python has that property when you don't bring C extensions into the conversation. Data races exist, but can never cause memory corruption due to the GIL.

[pjmlp]

GIL is on its way out already in 3.14 onwards.

[i_am_a_peasant]

isn’t that the point of languages that have first class actor models something something?

[SkiFire13]

Even in those languages you can easily have the equivalent of race conditions simply due to the order messages are received.