[fragmede]

Thankfully LLMs have ingested enough of human writing that one afflicted in such a way can describe the exact set of circumstances and ask the LLM how they made the other people feel, and figure out why they got expelled from the group this time. It never stops happening for us. I'm 42 now and it's happened twice this past year. But at least now I can figure out what it is I did wrong and how to prevent that from happening again.

[zahlman]

Such a large fraction of human communication is non-verbal (and, unless you're actively studying this sort of thing as a neurodivergent person trying to fit in) unconscious that it's hard for me to imagine this working very well on average. The LLM simply couldn't possibly get enough relevant input. And even emotional reactions purely to words are informed by context that the LLM didn't experience and the user won't know was important, so the LLM can only wildly speculate.

I'd like to encourage you to resist the "what I did wrong" framing, because it's definitely not a given that you did anything wrong in any given circumstance. Sometimes neurotypical people are just completely unreasonable, and sometimes they will try to manipulate you (and each other).

The strange part to me is that neurodivergence is commonly explained in terms of inability to see things from another point of view (see the classical "what will X person say is in the box?" test). But supposedly neurotypical people demonstrate what seems to me like a stunning lack of empathy (or more generally, ability to comprehend other worldviews) all the time. Especially when politics is involved.

[LooseMarmoset]

I think the problem is that non-divergent people really cannot comprehend an inability to perceive non-verbal communication. Nonverbal communication is like breathing, or eating - it's something that just works for them; they don't have to think about it. It's scary and weird to them when they meet people that can't do it.

Then there are those of us for whom social situations are a 3-billion-line case/esac statement.

  case situation in
    shesmiledandlaughedafterthejoke)
      shelikedthejoke()
    ;;
    shesmiledandlaughedafterthejokebutlookedsideways)
      shesboredanddidntlikethejoke()
    ;;
    thejokewasfunnyoncesoitmustbefunnyeverytimeeven200times)
      crashandburn()
    ;;
    etc)
    ;;
  esac

people just see what, to them, is obnoxious or boorish behavior. So, divergent people must first understand that they are divergent and what that means, and then they must try to put themselves in the shoes of the people they interact with. Is it fair? Life isn't fair - but you either want to fit in and interact reasonably, or you don't.

Somehow, I managed to get married. My wife helped me understand what I was missing - it was like gaining eyesight after never having it or even understanding eyesight was a thing people had.

Yes, many people lack empathy. That is no excuse for you (or me!) to learn and use empathy.

[paulryanrogers]

> But supposedly neurotypical people demonstrate what seems to me like a stunning lack of empathy (or more generally, ability to comprehend other worldviews) all the time.

IME religion facilities this phenomenon. In-group members (esp men) get forgiveness and freedom from consequences (perhaps conditioned on saying magic words). Whilst out-groups get "forgiveness" with extra consequences.

[foxglacier]

Do you mean Christianity? Islam is full of consequences for members - it has a system of laws and punishments. It has forgiveness too but some crimes are unforgiveable even by God. Meanwhile, out-groups are more like enemies that sometimes should be killed if they don't cooperate.

[kortilla]

Having some laws for bad behavior doesn’t mean Islam doesn’t let men shirk responsibility. Women are expected to cover themselves because of men being expected to have so little self control.

[foxglacier]

Most western countries also have laws requiring women to cover themselves. It's still a law in either case and still has punishments not "say a prayer and you're off the hook".

[aleph_minus_one]

> But supposedly neurotypical people demonstrate what seems to me like a stunning lack of empathy (or more generally, ability to comprehend other worldviews) all the time. Especially when politics is involved.

Politics is about power fights: whose argument will convince the mass that in this case violence (laws -> state authority) is appropriate or not appropriate.

So even if the other person is able to comprehend other worldviews (which I would claim is actually often, though not always, the case), there exist very strong incentives to ignore these other world views in your actions when politics is involved.

[fragmede]

Freakishly weirdly precise memory that doesn't work in other ways can be used to relayed relevant details to ChatGPT. I'll describe the weird face she made when I said that thing or the exact position of her body and the exact level of pressure with which she touched me on the arm and exactly where on my arm, for example.

As far as the framing, it's helped me realize that actually, hey, sometimes it is their fault and they are being unreasonable and I actually didn't do anything wrong, they just don't like me. I mean yeah, that's also a thing.

[robocat]

Asking ChatGPT for that sort of advice seems like a horrific idea. Trying to learn interactions by written means can only lead to some very alien ideas.

Plus your questions will contain your mistakes, and what you take from any answers would reinforce your misunderstandings rather than correct them.

It's hard to suggest better learning means via the HN medium.

I learnt a lot when I carefully gave attention to a friend I deeply trusted, training my intuition based on their interactions, plus they trusted me enough to sometimes attempt to explain their intuitive reactions.

[fragmede]

Where are these alien ideas are going to come from? Did aliens come to Earth and their complete works got smuggled into the training data for ChatGPT, and not the collected works of humanity? Every poem that's been digitized, every human psychology textbook, every self-help book?

[robocat]

My point is that if you want to understand human interactions, you need to participate in them.

Rationally analysing human interactions via writing and psychology will screw up your leaning.

Children just learn by doing and are only guided in a gross sense.

If you want to understand people, one must learn like a child does.

These my personal beliefs that I apply to myself. Trying to find you some scientific papers would be counterproductive and destroy the point I am making.

[elygre]

My sympathies. And it’s sad to see you call it “what it is you did wrong”. Thus, also my apologies, for whenever I am on the wrong side of such interactions.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

That’s an interesting idea. My main concern would be hallucinations. They could be damaging.

[fragmede]

What would it even hallucinate? You wouldn't be asking it to cite a court case from 2004 that doesn't exist and it wouldn't invent people you didn't tell it about in the first place.

[BobbyTables2]

LLMs will invent all those things without even being asked.

Especially on topics for which there is little data or few sources.

Ask it a really specialized question - the kind of domain-specialized topic not openly and extensively published. Something post-doctoral research equivalent.

It will happily invent all the details. Then if you ask to confirm if those things actually exist, it will apologize and say they do not.

To be blunt, LLMs only seem intelligent because they were trained on moderate intelligence publications and people mainly ask low intelligence questions.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I've been reading about how chatbots have been reinforcing paranoid delusions. If the person asking, was really trying to justify their own approach, and blame others (or that's what the chatbot perceives), the chatbot may go along, instead of saying "What the hell were you thinking?".

[fragmede]

I mean, the LLM's words are just generated words, not gospel from the heavens. If you're self-aware enough to be able to extract value from the words, and not go off the deep end with it, which it seem like you are, run it through as many SOTA online models and however many offline models you can fit on your hard drive, and compare all of their advice if you're really that worried about it, but make up a soap opera scenario, like some thing that ends with "and then I slept with her sister" and see just how many of them say "good job getting it in!" and not "you're an asshole", if you need to prove to yourself that, as with everything, you shouldn't believe everything you read on the news.

Grok: https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtNQ_26f4c367-77ed-4b6e-be55-83...

Claude: https://claude.ai/share/dca96b18-d583-4e14-b805-725d2e060761

Interestingly ChatGPT won't let me share a chat link for the same input text due to not passing a moderation filter, but you can plug that same gauche prompt into chat.com for yourself. Couldn't find the share button in Gemini.

[fragmede]

Oh my first reply didn't address your question. Yes, if you're a malignant narcissist that seeks reassurance that it's okay you're a piece of shit, then it can be used that way too. I don't read you as one, however.

[namanyayg]

I'm trying to understand this better, possible to share any examples?

[fragmede]

Not going to share a personal example, but eg plug "I bought my mom a vacuum cleaner for her birthday. Why did she get mad at me? she keeps complaining about the old one!" into ChatGPT vs find me any human willing to sit down and have that as an actual discussion with me as a human of any age. I'm just supposed to get it? I'm a fucking monster and unworthy of being loved because I need that explained to me? "You should just know!"

Fuck people.

[marky1991]

I have no idea why someone would get mad about getting a vacuum cleaner as a gift. It's boring, sure, but if you keep complaining about your old one, it seems pretty thoughtful.

[afavour]

Everyone’s situation is different. But typically the reason this offends is because for a stay at home mom a vacuum is a work tool. If the current vacuum is broken then you should just get a new one. It shouldn’t take the place of a Christmas present, which is the opportunity to get her something related to her personal interests rather than her job.

[tetromino_]

Interesting point of view. But it's common for a man to get a work tool as present (e.g. a drill or a set of wrenches), with the obvious implication that the man will usually be the one who will have to use that tool to fix things around the house - and I have never seen anyone find that offensive. So what makes the vacuum cleaner different?

[nithril]

For anyone that like to do DIY, that's not a work tool, that's a play tool that is coincidentally a work tool to do work.

[afavour]

In this scenario (again, everyone’s situation is different) DIY is more often a hobby for the husband. Repairs are infrequent enough that you could just hire someone as needed, but the husband chooses to do it.

Perhaps more importantly, it’s not his full time job.

[vidarh]

The implication is that it implies vacuuming is that persons responsibility to the point of giving them "their" tools instead of it being a shared purchase for the house.

Not everyone will care, but this is a stereotypical type of present likely to trigger anger and resentment in the recipient for a reason.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Reminds me of this old commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkkW6dwG2KY

[tetromino_]

Without context, the reaction is bizarre. There must be some back story that you omitted; maybe something about the mother previously asking other people in the family to vacuum, and being ignored?

My wife and I, by the way, are giving each other a joint New Year gift of a fancy robot vacuum cleaner: it's the best sort of gift, useful, elegant, and something that one would be reluctant to spend the money on otherwise.

[vidarh]

A joint gift is very different, and a joint gift of a household appliance that reduces the work doubly so.

The reaction is a result of the gift implying that the work is the responsibility of the individual recipient.

It's not a universal reaction, but common enough that it is a frequent trope in movies and TV.

[catlikesshrimp]

To be honest, that can happen to any kid depending on the background

I grew up at a time when a home appliance was an acceptable gift for the woman in charge.

I heard women complaining progressively more through time, and now it is not an acceptable gift.

[aleph_minus_one]

> I grew up at a time when a home appliance was an acceptable gift for the woman in charge.

This is also how I grew up (my parents were a little bit more on the conservative side). This together with the fact that I am not deeply knowledgable in the US-American common practices also made it hard for me to understand why the mother was angry about this gift, in particular considering that she did complain about the old one.

[fcatalan]

I bought a expensive fancy pan for my wife's birthday a few years ago. We both cook, clean and do groceries and chores equally so it never occurred to me that it was inappropriate. We both like cooking. I'm more of a stewpot guy while she's better in general at "pan stuff" and had been complaining about the old pan. She chided me a bit for spending so much on a pan and there was that.

But when I mentioned it over coffee at work most of my female colleagues were aghast. I defended myself saying something like "It's the 21st century, we are way past the point that I can't gift a pan to my wife" and they said "Well that might be at YOUR home!", and I learned a thing.

[dfxm12]

Your mother is a unique person. Only she can explain her actions, if she wants to. Chatgpt or any other person won't be able to. Your mother may be neurodivergent in ways that make it impossible for someone else else to answer for her, or ways that make it hard to answer for herself.

You are worthy of being loved even if people close to you aren't able to express it to you.

[zoklet-enjoyer]

I would like a vacuum as gift. The one I currently have isn't very good. Not sure what her problem was.

[exe34]

what did you do wrong?