[wisty]

Can you rephrase what I said without "literally using NATO for a grouping that does not include the US"?

I didn't even mention the US lol, I think you're paranoid but please, correct me ...

I mean, I didn't phrase it as Trump being a part of NATO, but he's not actually a country.

[alimw]

Oops I guess if this is as much sense as you can make then there wasn't much point in my trying to parse your comment in the first place.

[wisty]

I didn't group NATO and the US separately. You thought I did, but I didn't and you just hadn't read properly.

I waffled a bit in my reply to not rub it in too hard.

And do you want to contribute with something other than nitpick or insult?

Do YOU think that an informed and intelligent person can conclude that Trump is secretly a Russian agent, given he was the driving force behind a massive hike in NATO spending (which Putin really hates)?

I'm not calling Trump competent, or consistent, or benevolent. You can say he has a weird crushed on Putin and is easily manipulated and corrupt.

You can even suggest a lot of the MAGA people who surround Trump are actually working for Russia, since Russia tries to influence a lot of groups and Trump's cronies (and the influencers Trump listens to) are often compromised.

But do you think Trump is actually consistently taking orders from Putin because of some kind of leverage Putin has? Because people say this constantly and it's (in my opinion) almost as embarrassing as Republicans and the Pizza conspiracy. Trump has done some things that are increadibly damaging to Russia, and blackmail doesn't work on a pathological liar with no sense of shame.

I'm sure you're smart enough to agree with pretty much all of this. But you disingenuously attack me because I'm attacking people who are on your side, even if you would privately admit they are dumb.

[alimw]

This is what I read in your comment: that Trump "forced NATO to increase military spending to 5% of GDP". Are you talking about the US there? No, tautologically, you are talking about those parts of NATO that Trump forced to increase military spending to 5% of GDP. So what is controversial about my observation that you used the term NATO to stand for a NATO without the US?

My point was that by doing so you yourself add weight (a very little weight) to the thesis of the grandparent that, at least in people's perceptions, the US has left NATO. It wasn't just a nitpick, but at the same time I did not intend to join this side or that side in some mad argument that is playing out in your mind. I freely admit that at this point I am not reading all your output.

[wisty]

Yes the US is forced to meet the 5% target, as it is a part of NATO. What is your point?

Trump is the person who demanded the 5% target; Trump forced NATO to adopt a 5% target.

Trump also ordered ICE to deport more illegal / undocumented migrants, does this suggest that ICE is not a part of the US?

Trump forced the US to impose sanctions, does this suggest the US is not a part of the US?

How else would you phrase "Trump forced organisation x to do y"?

[xorcist]

> Trump is secretly a Russian agent,

Russian asset, not necessarily agent. At least that's the commonly spread idea, for which there is at least some circumstancial evidence: commercial projects in Russia for several decades and well documented links to Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs under Trump I just to name two.