[hnlmorg]

> But today, attacking the efforts of skilled engineers who have improved the language (given the constraints and without breaking half of the web) seems unfair.

I was criticising a thing not a person.

Also your comment implies it was ok to be critical of a language 10 years ago but not ok today because a few more language designers might get offended. Which is a weird argument to make.

[TheTaytay]

I think he’s saying it’s a fundamentally improved language at this point?

[ezst]

Not OP, but the case can be made that it's still the same very ugly language of 10 years ago, with few layers of sugar coating on top. The ugly hasn't gone anywhere. You still have to deal with it and suffer the cognitive burden.

[locknitpicker]

> Not OP, but the case can be made that it's still the same very ugly language of 10 years ago, with few layers of sugar coating on top.

Let's talk specifics. As it seems you have strong opinions, in your opinion what is the single worst aspect of JavaScript that justifies the use of the word "ugly"?

[ezst]

https://dorey.github.io/JavaScript-Equality-Table/

https://www.reddit.com/r/learnjavascript/comments/qdmzio/dif...

or anything that touches array ops (concatenating, map, etc…). I mean, better and more knowledgeable people than me have written thousands of articles about those footguns and many more.

I am not a webdev, I don't want to remember those things, but more often than I would wish, I have to interop with JS, and then I'd rather use a better behaved language that compiles down to JS (there are many very good ones, nowadays) than deal with JS directly, and pray for the best.

[Kwantuum]

Both of the things you quoted are basically gone in practice, you just always use const/let and always use triple-equals for equality comparisons and that's that. Most people that write JavaScript regularly will lint these out in the first place.

OTOH I think JS has great ergonomics especially wrt closures which a number of popular languages get wrong. Arrow functions provide a syntactically pleasant way to write lambdas, let/const having per iteration binding in loops to avoid nasty surprises when capturing variables, and a good number of standard methods that exploit them (eg map/filter on arrays). I also think, though a lot of people would disagree because of function coloring, that built-in async is a great boon for a scripting languages, you can do long operations like IO without having to worry about threading or locking up a thread, so you get to work with a single threaded mental model with a good few sharp edges removed.

[locknitpicker]

If type conversion and the new var declaration keywords are your top complains about a language, I'm sorry to say that you are at best grasping at straws to find some semblance of justification for you irrational dislike.

> I am not a webdev, I don't want to remember those things, (...)

Not only is JavaScript way more than a webdev thing, you are ignoring the fact that most of the mainstream programming languages also support things like automatic type conversion.

[ezst]

> you are at best grasping at straws to find some semblance of justification for you irrational dislike.

You seem so emotionally-involved that the whole point whooshed above your head. JS is a language that gives me no joy to use (there are many of those, I can put Fortran or SQL in there), and, remarkably, gives me no confidence that whatever I write with it does what I intend (down to basic branching with checking for nulliness/undefinedness, checking for edge-cases, etc). In that sense it's much worse than most of those languages that I just dislike.

> Not only is JavaScript way more than a webdev thing, you are ignoring the fact that most of the mainstream programming languages also support things like automatic type conversion.

Again, you are missing the point. JS simply has no alternative for webdev, but it's easy to argue that, for everything else, there are better, faster, more expressive, more robust, … languages out there. The only time I ever have to touch JS is consequently for webdev.