[samwho]

I was wondering about this when I was reading around the topic. I can’t personally think of a reason you would need to segregate, though it wouldn’t surprise me if they do for some sort of compliance reasons. I’m not sure though, would love to hear something first-party.

[weird-eye-issue]

They absolutely are segregated

With OpenAI at least you can specify the cache key and they even have this in the docs:

Use the prompt_cache_key parameter consistently across requests that share common prefixes. Select a granularity that keeps each unique prefix-prompt_cache_key combination below 15 requests per minute to avoid cache overflow.

[ambicapter]

> Select a granularity that keeps each unique prefix-prompt_cache_key combination below 15 requests per minute to avoid cache overflow.

Why below a certain number? Usually in caches a high number of requests keeps the cached bit from expiring or being replaced, no?

[weird-eye-issue]

It needs to go to the same machine and machines can only handle so many requests

[psadri]

Does anyone actually compute / use this key feature? Or do you rely on implicit caching? I wish HN had a comment with a poll feature.

[weird-eye-issue]

It would be important to use for relatively high traffic use cases

Let's say you have a chatbot with hundreds of active users, their requests could get routed to different machines which would mean the implicit caching wouldn't work

If you set the cache key to a user id then it would be more likely each user's chat could get cached on subsequent requests

[samwho]

The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of timing attack. Send loads of requests specific to a company you’re trying to spy on and if it comes back cached you know someone has sent that prompt recently. Expensive attack, though, with a large search space.

[gwern]

No, the search space is tiny: you can just attack 1 BPE at a time! Stuff like password guessing is almost trivial when you get to do a timing attack on each successive character. So that lets you quickly exfiltrate arbitrary numbers of prompts, especially if you have any idea what you are looking for. (Note that a lot of prompts are already public information, or you can already exfiltrate prompts quite easily from services and start attacking from there...)

[reitzensteinm]

Hill climbing a password would only be possible if intermediate KV cache entries were stored. To hillclimb "hunter2", you're going to try "a", "b", "c", etc, until you notice that "h" comes back faster. Then you try "ha", "hb" and so on.

But that's only going to work if the cache looks like: "h", "hu", "hun", ..., "hunter2"

If just "hunter2" is in the cache, you won't get any signal until you stumble on exactly that password. And that's before getting into the block size granularity of the caches discussed elsewhere in this thread.

That's not to say timing attacks aren't possible. I haven't looked at Claude Code's prompt generation, but there's no intrinsic reason why you couldn't do things like figure out what open source code and research papers your competitors are loading into context.

Sharing caches between orgs would be an incredible misstep.

[jgeralnik]

Right, you can’t actually guess a letter (byte) at a time but you can guess a token at a time (I believe the vocabulary is 200000 possible tokens in gpt 5) So you could send each of the 200000 possible tokens, see which is cached, and then send 200000 more tokens to find the next cached token Certainly less efficient but well within the realm of a feasible attack

[reitzensteinm]

It's a good call out re: tokens vs letters, but I think you might have misunderstood my point - you can't do it a token at a time unless the intermediate KV cache is stored after each token is generated.

This won't be the case in any non toy implementation, as it would be unneccessary and slow.

[jgeralnik]

Ah, fair enough. Anthropic caches at a block level (basically a single message) so for non-trivial messages this is really less of a concern, although I definitely understand why they still scope cache to a single tenant

[IanCal]

Do any providers do this level of granularity? Anthropic require explicit cache markers, for example.

[jgeralnik]

Anthropic requires explicit cache markers but will “look backwards” some amount, so you don’t need to fall on the exact split to get cached tokens

[gunalx]

I habe come across turning on caching means the llm has a faint memory of what was in the cache, even to unrelated queries. If this is the case its fully unreasonable to share the cache, because of possibility of information leakage.

[weird-eye-issue]

This is absolutely 100% incorrect.

[samwho]

How would information leak, though? There’s no difference in the probability distribution the model outputs when caching vs not caching.

[sroussey]

the probability distribution the model outputs is identical under identical conditions.

A local model running alone on your machine will 100% always return the exact same thing and the internal state will be exactly the same and you can checkpoint or cache that to avoid rerunning to that point.

But… conditions can be different, and batching requests tends to affect other items in flight. I believe Thinking Machines had an article about how to make a request deterministic again without performance going to complete crap.

I tend to think of things this way (completely not what happens though): what if you were to cache based on a tensor as the key? To generate a reasonably sized key what is an acceptable loss of precision to retrieve the same cache knowing that there is inherent jitter in the numbers of the tensor?

And then the ever so slight leak of information. But also multiplied since there are internal kv caches for tokens and blah blah blah.

[dustfinger]

I wonder if there is valuable information that can be learned by studying a companies prompts? There may be reasons why some companies want their prompts private.

[dustfinger]

I realize cache segregation is mainly about security/compliance and tenant isolation, not protecting secret prompts. Still, if someone obtained access to a company’s prompt templates/system prompts, analyzing them could reveal:

- Product logic / decision rules, such as: when to refund, how to triage tickets

- Internal taxonomies, schemas, or tool interfaces

- Safety and policy guardrails (which adversaries could try to route around)

- Brand voice, strategy, or proprietary workflows

That is just off the top of my head.