[breppp]

As far I remember a large reason for the water crisis is subsidizing water for agriculture which does not fit the local climate

This is based on some ideological pillar of being autarkic, as the Islamic Republic was generally built upon the fear of outside influence

sounds like if 90% of their water goes to agriculture, mostly export, and their country is cash strapped due to their habit of kidnappings, then maybe there's a simple solution here

[vintermann]

> This is based on some ideological pillar of being autarkic, as the Islamic Republic was generally built upon the fear of outside influence

You say that if it was some cultural oddity, and not a completely understandable reaction and exactly the same any state with "western culture" would have done in the same situation.

[breppp]

I don't say it's a cultural oddity, western culture had its fair share of self-destructive regimes which ideological underpinnings created great disasters, especially in the 20th century

[stocksinsmocks]

I feel like I may be insulting your intelligence with how obvious this is, but the Israeli government has had turning Iran into a failed state as an open policy objective since the 1980s. Given that Israeli interests have achieved this end in basically every non-monarchy in the region, I think this is a credible threat. Israel has a highly aggressive and influential lobby in the United States, which has posed debilitating sanctions on Iran for many years now. I’m not saying the religious leadership in Iran are the good guys, but the siege mentality is hardly irrational.

[breppp]

I think that's an overly simplistic and false view of Israeli-Iranian relations since 1979.

Israel had tried to help Islamist Iran negotiate with the US through the Contra debacle, shared intelligence with Iran against Iraq (failed reactor bombing) and outright sold weapons to Iran to support them against Iraq.

There was a naive belief in Israel that the daily "Death to Israel" chants are just rhetoric like in the arab countries it used to deal with, and Iran can be a quiet ally like before 1979

At the same time Iran fought Israel through their mercenaries in Lebanon up to the point where all of Iran's resources were consumed by the failed attempt to encircle Israel, which has collapsed completely in the last two years

[_DeadFred_]

What's been Iran's official policy objective? Who is the 'little satan' they call for the death of?

And siege mentality. Right. Like how instead of funding water works Iran surrounded Israel by funding Hamas, Hezbollah, and militias in Iraq.

[JumpCrisscross]

> exactly the same any state with "western culture" would have done in the same situation

Until like a couple years ago, autarky was generally not in the Western playbook. It’s a stupid idea that tends to be embraced by stupid people. The only ones who have done it sustainably are the Kims, as a nuclear monarchy over a totalitarian state.

[vintermann]

They have not been in the same situation, and that is sufficient explanation. No cultural geists need to be posited.

The point of autarky isn't that you want to isolate yourself from the world, but that because you credibly could, you're in a much stronger negotiating position in all those mutually beneficial deals you would like to make.

[JumpCrisscross]

> that because you credibly could, you're in a much stronger negotiating position in all those mutually beneficial deals you would like to make

Except it doesn't put one in a stronger position. It systematically weakens the economy. It only makes sense for domestic power-consolidation since a poor economy that can't trade with anyone except the state is entirely beholden to whoever controls the state.

Stupid idea. Stupid people.

[mr_important]

They're being sanctioned by a regime controlled by the most aggressive, violent group on earth.

[stevenwoo]

The USA has several regions that appear to be headed in the same direction because of some ancient laws about water rights; bureaucracies motivated by have budget/must use for only development of water resources; developers who benefit from government projects exploiting water resources (most egregiously the farming land and urban development in deserts in Southern California, and Arizona) - all under the guise of democracy documented in Cadillac Desert.

[MangoToupe]

> This is based on some ideological pillar of being autarkic, as the Islamic Republic was generally built upon the fear of outside influence

This sure is an interesting way to frame fifty years of organized sanctions

[breppp]

I wonder what Iran has done to receive sanctions

[MangoToupe]

I wonder this, too. I also wonder why Saudi Arabia and Israel aren't subject to the same sanctions. I'm sure there's a good reason somewhere....

[breppp]

Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Buckley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_A._Anderson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_U.S.%E2%80%93Iran_naval_i... https://www.iranintl.com/en/202408126589

Because that's their entire MO for their existence I can produce an endless stream of this really

[MangoToupe]

Ok, I don't see a comparison happening. Israel seems to kill americans on a regular basis. Saudi arabia doesn't seem to be much friendlier either, not to mention refusing to align with our proclaimed values.

You gotta do more to convince me that iran is any worse than either

Half the things you linked barely have anything to do with iran; certainly much less connection than saudi arabia had with 9/11. Do better!

[breppp]

> Ok, I don't see a comparison happening. Israel seems to kill americans on a regular basis. Saudi arabia doesn't seem to be much friendlier either, not to mention refusing to align with our proclaimed values

Both statements are false, Israel does not "kill americans on a regular basis" and Saudi Arabia has not supported proxy warfare killing thousands of Americans.

The links I pasted are well established to Iran, I can post more but that would waste both of our time as you try to synthesize new facts

[jrjeksjd8d]

Their country is cash strapped and needs to be independent because of US sanctions. The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government in the 50s which led to the Islamic Republic.

[breppp]

The CIA had supported coups in many countries yet these countries have not kidnapped 50 diplomats, that's probably the single worst thing you can do diplomatically.

Countries as religiously deranged as Iran are close US allies (Saudis), Iran had many chances of changing that in the last 40 years.

Also, that popular 50s coup story of bad imperialists vs good natives does not only seem too simple to be true, it is

[nradov]

That's true, but on the other hand the CIA today isn't forcing Iran to sponsor terrorist organizations or arrest women for being immodest or keep Islamists in charge. If they want to eliminate the sanctions then the path to doing so is clear and would have tremendous benefits for the Iranian people.

[vkou]

The Saudis are doing all of those things, but we turn a blind eye to that. The Cubans are doing none of those things, but they are still at the top of America's shit list.

Something makes me think that those aren't the reason for why Iran is everyone's favorite whipping boy in the region.

Nationalizing western assets half a century ago probably has something more to do with why they are treated the way they are.

[breppp]

Generally the Saudis aren't that great supporters of terror as they are made out to be, Qatar would be a better example.

The most important difference is that the deranged things the Saudis are doing aren't aimed at the West which makes them useful allies, also their current ruler is enacting reforms while Iran is only going backwards

Regarding nationalizing, Egypt had done that and has successfully jumped ship to the western sphere, it's completely possible. Saudi Aramco used to be American owned, you can nationalize with tact

[vkou]

Egypt has always had one foot in each camp.

The US' treatment of Cuba is the better example. It's doing none of the things the parent poster listed, yet it's still treated by the US as a pariah state. Uncle Sam doesn't care about how you treat women, or whether you have elections, but he deeply cares about you taking some corporation's stuff 70 years ago.

That is the original sin that can never be atoned for.

(For another example of that, see last night's deranged speech about Venezuela 'stealing' America's oil.)

[Paradigma11]

Cuba was an incredible active player for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_Cuba

[breppp]

Cuba and the US were very close to normalizing under Obama IIRC.

What do you think about Vietnamese-US relations?

[mrguyorama]

> If they want to eliminate the sanctions then the path to doing so is clear and would have tremendous benefits for the Iranian people.

Didn't... uh, didn't they... try?

And then Trump killed it?

My understanding is that there are allegations they were still pursuing nuclear capability but, we still don't have any actual evidence, and then we bombed them anyway.

[sam_goody]

We bombed them because we had evidence.

No-one normal is suggesting that the Iranians did not have practically weapons-grade fissile material, the only argument was whether we successfully destroyed it or just kicked the can down the road.

Recall that the regime calls us (the U.S) Satan, and openly calls for killing us all - and actually indoctrinates their kids to mass kill us - a result of which is attacks such as the one on the former World Trade Center.

It is really, really hard for an American to grok their worldview because it is so different then ours (and for that matter, it is NOT at all the view of all Arabs, or most Iranians or all Muslims - see the hero Ahmed El Ahmed last week!). But that is just burying your head in the sand - since the indoctrinated are ready and willing to kill US!

Now, some have an attitude, "let's believe them that they are just developing fissile material for energy, and let's even pay them gobs and gobs of money to do that. The fact they wont let us inspect is just a curious fact..." And then they are shocked when the material is really weapons grade. But if a nuclear weapon [a "dirty bomb"] went off in the States - which it 100% will if the Ayatollahs have the ability to make it happen - then IMO being shocked is not really a good enough excuse.

If you live in NY or LA, you should be aware that the regime claims they are going to take you out - at any price to themselves - as soon as they could, no different than they are targeting Jerusalem. The sanctions are an attempt to forestall some really unpleasant scenarios.

And that is when looking at just the regime in Iran. The bigger picture of how and where they invest their oil wealth and their previous American support is even more dangerous for us naive pretty summer boy western cultured folks.

/rant

[reducesuffering]

> democratically elected government

No, the government installed by the Shah and non-democratically-elected Majles, which stopped an election not going Mossadegh's way, was overthrown