[overbroad]

Does Javascript run outside the browser and outside of a platform like Node.js? I want stuff that can run on bare metal as well as on top of other code (software platform).

Personally, I don't care about browsers. One application of a gazillion possible applications. They are an afterthought. I care about sockets and the ability to connect a machine to other machines over a network.

I care about code that can boot a computer, code that can be used to write drivers to control hardware (maybe some new hardware that just hits the market), and code that let's us build on top of that. With this code we should be able to build a kernel and userspace utilities and thereby manage to operate the hardware. Once everything is up and running, then we can install any scripting language we want. We don't have to use the same language we used to build the system to do any work after that, but we could. Indeed many higher level things are written in C, e.g., the interpreters for languages like JavaScript and the web browsers they are a part of. Maybe there's a reason for that?

If the best code for building from the ground up on any given piece of hardware is Javascript, it's news to me. Any examples? I have a new piece of hardware. Can I boot it using JavaScript? Can I control the hardware with JavaScript?

I believe the OP just wanted to do parsing in userspace. Personally I use C for that (generated from flex), but there are countless languages that can do parsing. Why he chose to attack C I have no idea. Like I said, once the computer is up and running (thanks to C), we can use any language we like. We can run "web browsers", and software platforms. And JavaScript. So, have fun with your JavaScript. But I'm pretty sure C isn't going away anytime soon.

[icebraining]

Nobody attacked C, not me, not the author. If you disagree, please be so kind to indicate the excerpt where he attacks it.

Interpreters and kernels are written in C because C is a great, and probably the best language for the job. That doesn't mean, and this was my only point, that it's the only possible language that can ever do that; it isn't.

If the best code for building from the ground up on any given piece of hardware is Javascript

Where did anyone say that? I didn't say that. The author didn't say that.

As far as I'm concerned, JavaScript is not the best code for anything except pushing code to the browser.

The only thing I said was that technically, you can write JS to do it. That's all.

Can I boot it using JavaScript? Can I control the hardware with JavaScript?

The only thing that can control the hardware is machine code. You can control the hardware with anything that can generate that. JavaScript can, therefore in theory you can control the hardware with it. Doesn't mean it's a good idea. Doesn't mean it's better than C. Nobody ever claimed that.

But I'm pretty sure C isn't going away anytime soon.

No, it must certainly won't, and thank $DEITY for that.

[overbroad]

ice: "Nobody attacked C, not me, not the author. If you disagree, please be so kind to indicate the excerpt where he attacks it."

author: "So fuck - maybe it's time to finally give up and accept that I cannot compete with a well engineered C binding. C must be faster after all.

Well - fuck this! This is unacceptable. Fuck this "C is the only choice if you want the best performance" type of thinking. I want JavaScript to win this. Not because I like JavaScript, oh it can be terrible. I want JavaScript to win this because I want to be able to use a higher level language without worrying about performance."

ice: "As far as I'm concerned, JavaScript is not the best code for anything except pushing code to the browser."

We are in 100% agreement then.

Sure, technically (i.e. by creating a language using a lexer+aprser and some primitives in asm), any language could be used for any purpose. The reason I said what I said about JavaScript being limited is that it was not designed that way, i.e. to do anything. It was as you state, designed to run in a web browser. I would love to use JavaScript from, e.g. the command prompt, outside of a browser, but it has never been easy to do that without pretending you are running a web browser (learning DOM an so forth). The language is designed for a browser. Is that a limitation? To me, yes.

C does not have that sort of limitation. That's all I'm saying. And C works for many purposes right now - my OS has a vast library of C functions to do all manner of things low and high level. And that's without even looking at other huge repositories on the web. Compare this with mere "theoretical" capabilities, e.g. ideas like "low level JavaScript".

I told you why I like C and why I see JavaScript as limited. Not to contradict anything you said, but to explain where I'm coming from. Maybe I would like JavaScript even more than C, if I explored it more fully, but there's no way I'll like it more when it is so limited in what it can do (practically, not theoretically). I approach computer languages from a practical standpoint. I ask myself what can I do if I learn this language? I concluded that for me, C opens more doors, many more doors, than JavaScript. Some people know both. But I'm not that smart. I have to choose.

If I was smart, I'd learn many languages. But I have to work with a smaller set of knowledge.

Given that I have to choose, truthfully, if I had my preference, I'd choose FORTH and devote all my effort to learning and writing in FORTH. Technically anything is possible using FORTH. So what? By focusing only on FORTH I would be losing all the leverage that people's work with C can offer. There is only so much I, with my limited smarts, could accomplish.

Certainly you can understand my position a little, can't you? Why do so many people love Perl and Python? If we took away all the libaries (=enablement, empowerment) would they still love them as much? For what I want to do (i.e. potentially anything, from booting to browsing), C gives me ample enablement and empowerment. Self-hosting JavaScript doesn't. And if someone writes a BIOS for ARM scriptable in JavaScript, but they write some part of it in C, well, I'm still going to want to learn C before JavaScript. That's just how I think.

[icebraining]

I don't think those excerpts show any attack on C, he just doesn't like that he can't use higher level languages without sacrificing performance. Which is a position that you may disagree with, but I don't think it's an attack on C.

would love to use JavaScript from, e.g. the command prompt, outside of a browser, but it has never been easy to do that without pretending you are running a web browser (learning DOM an so forth). The language is designed for a browser.

I don't think there's anything in the language itself that is designed for the browser; it's just the standard library that is lacking.

The Rhino shell, for example, comes with functions like readFile/2 and runCommand/N which are much more adequate for that kind of programming.

But it's certainly not as useful as C, and I certainly don't use. Though I tend to use Python, not C either (ctypes is awesome).

C does not have that sort of limitation. That's all I'm saying. And C works for many purposes right now - my OS has a vast library of C functions to do all manner of things low and high level. And that's without even looking at other huge repositories on the web. Compare this with mere "theoretical" capabilities, e.g. ideas like "low level JavaScript".

Sure; I don't think anyone denies that.

That said, it's not true that those functions are closed to you if you use JavaScript; check out node-ffi: https://github.com/rbranson/node-ffi

Running JS on bare metal is, at the moment, a pipe dream, though.

Certainly you can understand my position a little, can't you? Why do so many people love Perl and Python? If we took away all the libaries (=enablement, empowerment) would they still love them as much? For what I want to do (i.e. potentially anything, from booting to browsing), C gives me ample enablement and empowerment. Self-hosting JavaScript doesn't. And if someone writes a BIOS for ARM scriptable in JavaScript, but they write some part of it in C, well, I'm still going to want to learn C before JavaScript. That's just how I think.

Sure, I can understand your position perfectly. I just don't think your portrayal of the article was fair to the author, that's all.