[RamblingCTO]

I've just had this topic with friends. How can finland and the nordics be further up than, say, spain? Have they ever been? Sure, materialistic safety is better up there. But the way of living, at least in my experience, is way higher. Look at suicide rates and alcoholism and such.

I'll spoil it: - Finland 38 - Norway 71 - Spain 137

(fun fact: USA is 31)

ranked by suicide. If you visit it, and the vibes and feelings you have don't match the statistics, the statistics are shit I'd say. And maybe cities and rural areas destroy this statistic. But what do I know (but the article agrees with me)

[estomagordo]

Using suicide rates as a measure for population happiness is very peculiar, given that the people who commit suicide represent fractions of a percent, and would only ever sum up to a rounding error.

[crazygringo]

It's not that peculiar if you assume all countries follow the same type of happiness distribution that is simply shifted/stretched lower or higher.

Then, the relative size of a bottom or top absolute threshold is highly meaningful. Even if it's a fraction of a percent, populations are huge and suicide rates are not rounding errors at all -- they're actually quite statistically significant.

And as macabre as it is, suicides are objective facts mostly unaffected by methodology, and unaffected by translation issues, cultural differences, etc.

This is why suicide rates are actually a powerful mental health statistic, just like height is a powerful physical health statistic, at the population level. There's obviously still a lot both of these metrics don't say, but the fact that they are highly objective makes them extremely valuable.

[jampekka]

The World Happiness Report discusses this:

"The large variations in the systems and processes to define mortality causes imply there may be very different numbers of deaths that are registered with a specific cause. This creates a problem for cross-country comparisons of mortality by cause in general, and even more so for deaths of despair, and suicides in particular.

The person responsible for writing the cause of death on the death certificate may be different across countries. In some countries, the police are responsible, while in others a medical doctor, coroner, or judicial investigator takes on this role. Differences in doctors’ training, access to medical records, and autopsy requirements contribute to these discrepancies. The legal or judicial systems that decide causes of death also vary. For instance, in some countries suicide is illegal and is not listed as a classifiable cause of death, leading to underreporting or misclassification of suicides as accidents, violence, or deaths of “undetermined intent.”[25]

Data on suicides, even when reported, can be inaccurate due to social factors as well. In some countries, suicide might be taboo and highly stigmatised, so the families and friends of the person who committed suicide might decide to misreport or not disclose the mortality cause, causing underreporting of its incidence. In other societies, such as Northern Europe, there is less stigma attached to suicides, and alcohol and drug use."

https://www.worldhappiness.report/ed/2025/supporting-others-...

[Karrot_Kream]

I don't think it would be that difficult to reconcile suicides between G20 countries. Outside of that, sure, data collection methods and quality heavily differ. But many people are interested in the varying levels of happiness among the G20 and there it doesn't seem that difficult to compare.

[andreasgl]

> And as macabre as it is, suicides are objective facts mostly unaffected by methodology, and unaffected by translation issues, cultural differences, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if cultural differences are actually the largest factor that explains a country's suicide rate. Not easy to prove, of course, but I would be very careful drawing any conclusions from differences in suicide rates between countries with vastly different cultures.

I think you can also expect large differences in how countries report their suicide rates.

[mekoka]

I won't go into too much details on the topic, as it's loaded with triggering elements. Let's just say that if you were to study how different cultures apprehend and conceptualize life and death (whether philosophically or religiously), I'm fairly sure that you'd come out the other end questioning a lot of your original assumptions (which I only presume you hold based on your comment). Our collective outlook can have significant and far reaching influence in individual decisions.

[williamdclt]

> if you assume all countries follow the same type of happiness distribution that is simply shifted/stretched lower or higher.

That's a pretty strong assumption, seems more likely that there's variation at the extremes than not. For example, if a small percentage of the population deals badly with extended nighttime in long winters, then it'll affect Finland's most-unhappy stats (and suicide rates) without meaning much for the average happiness.

[BartjeD]

Suicides are hugely affected by cultural norms. In certain Asian cultures this has quite the history, so this can't be a correct assumption.

[Karrot_Kream]

Most Asian cultures with suicide problems acknowledge and try very hard to bring those rates down. It isn't just a cultural norm and is in fact a good indicator of the happiness of a population.

[mrguyorama]

> It isn't just a cultural norm and is in fact a good indicator of the happiness of a population.

Prove it

[Karrot_Kream]

Here's [1] the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare's page on preventing suicides. The motto is 誰も自殺に追い込まれることのない社会の実現を目指して or "Aiming for a world where nobody must deal with suicide"

[1]: https://www.mhlw.go.jp/stf/seisakunitsuite/bunya/hukushi_kai...

[RamblingCTO]

QoL certainly has its effect on suicide rates. I assume that life is the shittier, the more people opt to leave on their own terms. Just look at russia, absolute shithole and it's on rank 11.

If people are happy, you have less suicides. I don't need a study for that.

[bendtb]

There is also a religious element to suicide that cannot be overlooked.

Also, I Spain your view of Spain is tainted. I think very few people would choose an average city in Spain over e.g. Copenhagen where 20% of the Danish population live.

[GoatOfAplomb]

All the Spanish cities I've visited have looked "perfect", but there's a lot I don't see as a tourist, e.g. that Spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe (10.5%).

[PLMUV9A4UP27D]

Finland is now close to Spain when it comes to unemployment rate! Let's see how that affects Finland's ranking.

[alephnerd]

The perception of Spain is much more positive in the Anglophone world - it's viewed as a country where cost of living is low, you can nap in the middle of the day, the women/men are hot and easy, the wine is great and cheap, and you can party late at night.

In reality the average Spaniard isn't experience the majority of that, as those are perceptions that arose from the rose-tinted glasses of tourists. Most tourists don't know about the Eurozone crisis, the regional disparity, and the consolidation of Spain's economic growth engines to 1-2 cities.

Spain is a good developed country with a decent QoL as is reflected by it's HDI and developmental indicators (and the fact that it has outpaced historically richer and more developed Italy is a testament to that), but tourists almost always take a rose-tinted view whereas locals almost always take a negative view.

And I think this is the crux of the issue with how the "World Happiness Index" is used in American discourse - in the US almost no one vists Europe or other parts of the World for extended periods of time and most Americans lack familial or social ties in Europe. As such, idealized images of Europe ("a socialist paradise" or "white Christendom under siege") have taken hold in popular discourse and are used as proxies for the American culture war.

[vjk800]

> The perception of Spain is much more positive in the Anglophone world - it's viewed as a country where cost of living is low, you can nap in the middle of the day, the women/men are hot and easy, the wine is great and cheap, and you can party late at night.

If you're a tourist, you get to experience only those parts. If you live there, you have to experience the other 99% of the life also and it's not so great.

[alephnerd]

Did you even read the second sentence?

[phony-account]

These measures are bullshit and often just come down to a prevalent societal ‘temperament’ that’s inculcated from birth. I live and have family in Sweden and the rest of my family is in Spain. The Swedes have immense pride in their country and pretty much only talk about the positives. When the winters are dark, cold, rain has been pouring for fourteen days straight and the last time you saw sun was 4 weeks ago, they say “there’s no bad weather just bad clothes”. One day I sat with my cousin and some other relatives in the olive grove of his country place in Spain - sun was shining and we’d been eating delicious locally produced food for hours and drinking wine from his vineyard while he yapped on about how everything in Spain is ‘shit’ (una mierda). And this is why places like Finland are reportedly the ‘happiest’ in the world.

[oldestofsports]

We’ve had about 1 hour of sunlight so far in december where i live in Finland, but it’s fine. It also makes the sun way more enjoyable when it finally shines in the summer.

I’d never want to live in perpetual summer. Seasons brings joy.

[haritha-j]

I'm from Sri Lanka, and i'm glad you're 'happy' with it, but i'll take my eternal sunshine over months of darkness anyday.

[phony-account]

> I’d never want to live in perpetual summer. Seasons brings joy

Even this is a typical myth that I often hear from Scandinavians. In fact different parts of Spain (or England or France) have also clearly demarcated seasons.

If you want to experience the joy of Autumn then the crisp, long days of an English Fall are incomparably more distinct than the unrelenting darkness that’s almost indistinguishable from Winter in Scandinavia, for instance. And when Spring comes to the valleys of the temperate regions of Spain, then the blossom and explosion of wild flowers is miraculous.

But like I said, from preschool onwards Scandinavians are indoctrinated with the belief that they live in the best of all possible worlds, and no amount of actual experience can ever dent that notion.

[arethuza]

Not sure that "crisp" is a word I'd use to describe any part of the UK in autumn - probably more like "soggy" - but that applies to any season!

[oldestofsports]

If the temp stays above 0 degrees celsius all year round it does not count as having seasons, since winter is obviously missing.

[pezezin]

I am Spanish and I agree with your comment. Sadly we love to hate our country, I guess we still have a lot of guilt accumulated from Franco's era.

In my case, the cure was traveling and living abroad for 7 years now, it made me realize that Spain is actually a great country.

[SiempreViernes]

To be fair, nothing in Sweden can match the flooding of Valencia.

[parineum]

I don't see how that makes the measure bullshit. Outlook and expectations are related to happiness. If you want for nothing but have little it's better than a never ending treadmill of more.

Having a culture that produces happier people in worse circumstances doesn't make those people less happy.

[phony-account]

> Having a culture that produces happier people in worse circumstances doesn't make those people less happy

The question is whether stoicism in the face of what most people would categorize as suffering should be classified as “happiness”.

[allturtles]

Yes, absolutely. How else would you define it? The whole point of happiness is that is a subjective, internal state. If you just want to know if people live in a cold, dark climate you don't need to ask them.

[euroderf]

> There is also a religious element to suicide that cannot be overlooked.

Also a genetic component.

[nephihaha]

Dark winters are a bigger component here. Most Nordic countries get little sun in winter and it gets worse the further north you are.

[euroderf]

Finland leads the world in per capita coffee consumption. My pet theory is that in the winter it fights depression, and in the summer the sun is out late at night and you're saying to your friends: How could we possibly go to sleep now?! Moar coffee!!

[nephihaha]

I tend to find coffee increases jitteriness and anxiety in people. Some evidence it may increase depression too.

[euroderf]

Well, maybe not so much fight depression as fight lethargy ?

[socalgal2]

Have you eaten everyday food (not gourmet) in Copenhagen?

[simonask]

Copenhageners eat the same plastic-wrapped salads, organic grass-fed whatever, and whatever the latest green smoothie trend is, as in Southern California.

If this is a dig at the largely pork/cabbage/potato-based diet of Northern Europe, you will be relieved to hear they don’t follow it.

Source: Am one.

[refurb]

Even if the question was perfectly unbiased and captured happiness, comparing scores from country to country are impossible because the scale differs from country to country.

A 10 in Afghanistan is not the same as a 10 in Canada. Societies have different perception of “the best” based on each individuals experience, what society values and what they think is possible.

So while helpful in tracking happiness over time within the same country, it can’t be used to compare countries.

[silisili]

Not for nothing, but I'm not sure that's a great metric. Venezuela for instance is 178, and it doesn't seem like an overly happy place to be these past few years.

[nephihaha]

In Venezuela people are told to be happy.

[BurningFrog]

Note that people who commit suicide don't answer surveys anymore.

[M95D]

People are usually unhappy for a long time before that happens.