[jotux]

>What is the expected compensation for participants? Compensation varies based on experience level and agency placement. Annual salaries are expected to be in the approximate range of $150,000 to $200,000. Benefits include health insurance, retirement plans, paid time off, and eligibility for performance-based awards.

>Tech Force will primarily recruit early-career technologists

So "early-career" but they're going to get paid GS-14/15 pay[1] in DC? New grad engineers in DC are going to be GS-7/9 at best. This is either a blatant lie, or created by someone who has no idea of how federal pay works (or both).

As an aside, I was a fed for >10 years and left last year for industry but stay in touch with friends still working federal jobs. Before this administration recruiting was extremely difficult and candidate quality was low. I've heard that it's nearly impossible now and in the last 18 months they've only been able to hire a single person. Federal jobs used to be considered stable, with good benefits, but low pay. Now they're unstable, the current administration is actively working to make benefits worse, and the pay is still really low.

[1] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...

[neilv]

> Before this administration recruiting was extremely difficult and candidate quality was low. I've heard that it's nearly impossible now and in the last 18 months they've only been able to hire a single person. Federal jobs used to be considered stable, with good benefits, but low pay. Now they're unstable, the current administration is actively working to make benefits worse, and the pay is still really low.

Also, many people took pride in the service they provided to their country (or to the people, or as part of a team that did good, however they thought of it).

I don't have high hopes for this new thing.

After recent treatment of federal employees, and other things going on in the US this year, including how USDS as DOGE was weaponized against the US... I'd expect this new thing to only be able to recruit from these categories:

1. Outright bad people, with anti-US, looter/saboteur intent, as we've seen from other facets recently. They will focus on their own bad-person individual interests.

2. People who aren't bad, but who are so cognitively impaired, that they still don't realize that they're probably going to get screwed personally and/or directed to be the baddies. They will be bad at everything they do.

3. People who are intelligent and pro-US, and have no illusions about what they're signing up for, but who desperately need the income, after being screwed earlier this year. They won't be inspired to execute well on whatever anti-US directives they're given.

[jotux]

Before all of this happened the hiring I had to deal with when I was federal fell into similar buckets:

1. Completely inept or lazy people that couldn't get a job anywhere else (~50%)

2. Smart people that took the job because it was close to their family (~30%)

3. Smart people that took the job because they liked the the specific mission and felt like it was really important (~10%)

4. Smart people that took the job after retiring from a private industry job as a sort of laid-back post-retirement hobby (we called them re-treads, ~10%)

From what I've heard, a lot of federal employers can only hire from the #1 category now, and the applicants in that category have gotten worse.

[mgrat]

There's just no path to home ownership in the DC area for the fed career path after the ZIRP era. A capable person would have to be insane or desperate given the economics alone.

[mothballed]

DC has the highest per capita income of anywhere in the US (vs other states/territories), so when you realize federal workers are producing the most value for America the economics are at least a little better. If you look at relative economic slackers like workers of NYC and the private industry where less value is per capita created, it's a bit rougher.

[square_usual]

> DC has the highest per capita income of anywhere in the US

This isn't from the Federal workers; it's from people working in contracting for the Feds or other similar roles.

[mothballed]

Googling average Federal worker income in DC, every number I came up with was the above the average for DC, and DC is higher than every other state/territory.

I find nothing supporting your assertion but plenty opposing it. Feds are not only pulling it up, but the biggest group of people doing so.

[ethbr1]

What does this have to do with the price of DC housing and federal employee salaries' ability to purchase it?

[mothballed]

Lower salaries at the same home prices would make it even more difficult. This is what we see in NYC, for instance.

DC has some of the highest home prices but also the highest incomes.

[Centigonal]

This is a distorted comparison and you know it. DC in unique among US states and territories in that it encompasses a major metropolitan area with no rural regions. In this comparison, DC also leads the country in population density, average building height, public transit usage, latte consumption, and any other correlate of living in a city.

If you compare DC against other major metropolitan statistical areas, the leadership disappears -- see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropol...

[mothballed]

>If you compare DC against other major metropolitan statistical areas, the leadership disappears -- see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropol...

No it doesn't, not according to the linked data you're proposing. I sorted by per-capita income of MSAs on the second table of that page, it shows DC MSA blowing the other metropolitan areas away. Might not still be accurate as that's a 2010 census, but you're the one insisting on it.

Looks like you're the one, distorting your own citations, mate and you "know it." Methinks this a case of psychological concept known as 'projection'.

[guru4consulting]

when I saw 18F, CISA, USDS were targeted by DOGE, everything was clear. They were just cutting all the good muscle and leaving the bad fat :(

[ivanech]

I believe the new grad DOGE employees were GS-15s. So yes, it seems likely that they plan to hire at GS-14 or GS-15.

[ethbr1]

Nothing like putting in a multi decade civil service career and coming in one day to find a 20-something installed over you whose primary qualification was being hired at a "friendly" tech company and making the right kind of joke around the CEO.

... although that seems depressingly like it would also be the experience with new administrators being installed in executive agencies every 4 years, except they're slightly older.

Man, if only there were some way to retain talent in the face of political leadership transitions... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform...

[AndrewKemendo]

That’s the life of a civil servant though

By function a GS will ALWAYS be subordinate to a political appointee and there’s nothing they can do about it

I posted elsewhere that I left a govt career as a military officer precicely because of this reality. It’s like a old boring joke now that politicians are corrupt and worthless.

I will tell you from the inside that not only is it true but it’s 10 times to 100 times worse than you think it is.

I have multiple stories of operational systems, functions, whatever you wanna call them that we’re working exceptionally well had good backing, good funding and were completely wiped out because whoever became the deputy under secretary for that budget line decided they didn’t want to do it anymore. and completely shelved decades worth of work. Like literally I remember having to unplug a server that was running life-critical beacons for POWs because they weren’t being used enough.

As if that weren’t enough that same development problem then shifted over to some new hot organization that is in the politicians jurisdiction and then they start over from scratch with none of the learning from the previous admin.

There is no positive system that can be affected by the United States government

It does not exist, they cannot functionally or structurally exist, because the government of the United States but is not and has never been built on supporting citizens or the global community it is built and has always been built to support wealthy politicians and that’s all.

I’m not aware of how every other countries work but the ones I’ve seen the inside are the same

Going into the government for the “mission” is probably the most intentionally ignorant thing somebody could do given the plethora of easily accessible data proving exactly this

[nebula8804]

Somehow this country has managed to do big and bold things when it is needed. Those great systems that were dismantled got built at one point so it is theoretically possible to do good. Furthermore other countries seem to do a better job at serving their citizens so its not like effective government is impossible((look at how the EU at least gets some things that benefit their citizens even though most of it is a mess).

There has got to be some pathway to get back to that.

[AndrewKemendo]

All those things were reactions to either disasters or radical growth.

The only way to make people act is to create a situation they can’t avoid

[zbentley]

> a GS will ALWAYS be subordinate to a political appointee

It’s worth being specific about what is meant by “political appointee” here. That term has specific legal meaning in the context of federal staffing, and (as I understand it, not a lawyer) is not the same thing as “GS employee who was hired as part of an administration’s political agenda”.

[AndrewKemendo]

Cause a “political” GS is not a thing hence why they have either congressional appointment or alternative pathway to political appointment

[zbentley]

> Nothing like putting in a multi decade civil service career and coming in one day to find a 20-something installed over you

GS grade does not correspond directly to manager/managee relationships at plenty of federal agencies. Someone getting hired at a higher GS grade is not automatically “over you” in the formal reporting hierarchy. That’s not to say this never happens (GS:org chart level is the case more often than not, I’d guess), but it’s not a given.

Now, if your issue is that agencies sometimes offer high (by the standards of current employees) GS grades to attract talented hires, then I agree that is a problem! The solution to that is to improve government pay scales and fix fed hiring more generally: https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/dear-mr-kupor-please-fix-fede...

Until that is done, (good) policies like the Pendleton Act cannot help that much.

[sheepscreek]

Not being dismissive of your experience (or that of a civil servant with 10s of years of experience). I have a deep respect for that kind of work and folks who give up more lucrative opportunities in order to serve their country and fellow citizens.

> whose primary qualification was being hired at a "friendly" tech company and making the right kind of joke around the CEO

That’s being awfully dismissive of the individuals skill set. Nobody gets the job by making the right kind of jokes around the CEO. Nobody. Getting in the door takes hard work, talent and some amount of luck.

[ipython]

For DOGE specifically? Would be interested to hear of those DOGE employees who truly deserved to be GS-15s due to their extensive experience in both tech and government.

[zbentley]

> extensive experience in both tech and government.

The USDS (group that was renamed to a part of DOGE) has previously hired with an emphasis on non government experience: http://govciomedia.com/usds-developing-innovative-approach-t...

[ipython]

The USDS and DOGE had completely different mandates. Non government experience makes sense when you’re trying to learn the lessons of industry to improve gov website accessibility, performance and ux.

On the other hand, trying to slash spending with no understanding of the agencies you’re working at- let alone any life experience for a lot of these folks- is a very different mandate.

[DANmode]

because, at the time, slick landers, and general good UI/UX was completely missing from government tech workflows.

[mixmastamyk]

It still takes around 5-15 years to get to the upper end of the pay scale, currently $195K.

[AndrewKemendo]

Not true

I was hired in under HQE accession in 2019 and made SES 4 equivalent with zero civilian time in service.

[mixmastamyk]

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-admi...

Doesn't sound like you're talking about General Schedule.

[AndrewKemendo]

Correct and there’s no legal requirement to use the GS.

This new force could easily and legally acquire and pay through other schedules - happens all the time.

[lumost]

At least in 2010, it was common for new grads to get GS-14/GS-15 pay for in-demand tech skills. It's a bit odd that early career folks would start out at the max of the pay band, but it is what it is. These were for roles which required a clearance.

[Jtsummers]

Not for people with just a BS, at least outside certain areas (DC) and roles (cybersecurity). GS-12 was a more typical "target" position (with GS-13 on occasion, like at some of the labs) back in 2010. A masters or a PhD could have bumped you up to GS-13/14/15 though.

Target: People typically enter, when coming out of college, at a lower grade in the GS-5/7/9 area with a target position of one of GS-11/12/13. IT (not CS) folks were often in GS-11 targeted positions, computer scientists and engineers often in GS-12 positions. They'd get promoted in two grade increases (5 to 7, 7 to 9, 9 to 11) or one grade increases (11 to 12, 12 to 13) until they hit their target grade. At a rate of either one increase per year or per 6 months depending on when they got hired, by what agency, and in what role. An IT person, usually one increase per year; engineer, typically two increases per year. Computer scientists usually got screwed and got one increase per year which meant you had fewer of them wanting to work for the government (they also, at that time, rarely got signing bonuses). This leaves a lot of the software shops in DOD (where I had experience) mostly filled with aerospace and electrical engineers.

"Cyber" roles (security; which could be a couple different job series) in some agencies jumped up faster or had a higher target grade due to the need (or perceived need) for more people.

[alephnerd]

> Not for people with just a BS, at least outside certain areas (DC) and roles (cybersecurity)

Based on the FAQ, US Tech Force roles are located in DC (so they'll get the DC adjustment) and from the sounds of it, this proposal is the AI Washing the "Cyber Service" or "Cyber Exempted Service".

Also, based on Scott Kupor's (former Managing Parter at A16Z turned head of OPM) memo [0] it appears they seem to be using the same approach used to start the USDS back in the Obama admin. And based on their mention of "fellows", I think they'll merging parts of what used to be the Presidential Management Fellows program.

If AI-washing and Trump-washing helps maintain the core of these programs, there's nothing wrong with that.

Edit:

Dug deeper thru the FAQ - it's basically an AI washed version of the PMF and PIF.

[0] - https://www.opm.gov/chcoc/latest-memos/building-the-ai-workf...

[Jtsummers]

I was responding to someone's claim about new grads (read the comment I responded to), not about US Tech Force. The person I responded to claimed that it was common for new grads (circa 2010) to jump in at GS-14/15. That was not common.

[alephnerd]

Ahh! My bad! Yea you're absolutely right - aside from PMFs who came out of grad programs you aren't see a new grad starting beyond GS7/8 in most cases.

It's also why a large portion of Gov employees end up jumping ship to professional services firms like BAH, Deloitte, Accenture, etc.

[lumost]

It could be a bias in the roles I was looking at - but coming in with physics undergrad for computer science roles, that was the standard set of roles in the Boston area for defense roles. Granted, these were mostly with private contractors who mirrored the GS pay scale along with their supporting government offices.

[jotux]

>Granted, these were mostly with private contractors who mirrored the GS pay scale along with their supporting government offices.

So they weren't federal jobs?

[lux-lux-lux]

This was absolutely not true, and I don’t know where you’re getting this. A newly minted CS PhD with a top end clearance would have gotten a GS-13 at most, anything less would have been much lower. Where I worked, STEM bachelors were generally hired on as GS-7s or 9s.

[pavel_lishin]

I'd wager that the "approximate" in that sentence is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting.

[hopelite]

Not to mention “…recruiting an elite corps of engineers to build…” while also “…participants will receive technical training…”

So “elite” engineers need technical training?

What am I missing here.

I have extensive experience with this kind of government nonsense, but usually it is kind of in the background, blather no one really takes serious because it’s just blowing smoke. But this seems so credibility destroying through its ridiculous contradictions and bombast.

[lowkey_]

(1) Are you saying it's bad if they're upping engineer pay to be more competitive, or you're just skeptical that they will?

(2) I'd actually like the American government to pay better wages for its engineers, and optimize for hiring the best, rather than those desiring a stable, low-paying bureaucracy — I don't think that attracts the best people.

(3) On talent and recruiting: This is being done by the National Design Studio, it says at the bottom. That's led by a cofounder of Airbnb - I know one person who works at the National Design Studio and he's a phenomenal engineer. The administration also has the involvement of David Sacks, who founded Craft Ventures and is pretty well-known in SV. I think this is probably the most tech-competent the government will have been in a long time. I'm not crediting Trump at all for that, to be clear - just pointing out that tech talent in government seems to be getting better, not worse.

[zbentley]

> I'd actually like the American government to pay better wages for its engineers, and optimize for hiring the best

Yes, and a big part of this involves changing the way agencies rely on contractors for specialty work (including tech work).

[jotux]

#1: I am extremely skeptical they are paying that. I suspect this was put together by someone who has no understanding of federal pay systems. "$150,000 to $200,000" is already an erroneous number, federal salary is limited by federal law and cannot exceed $195200.

#2: Overwhelmingly I agree. Federal pay is very, very broken. They should reform it to align more with the private sector, and there are laws in place that do that, and every year the sitting president literally writes a letter stating it would be an economic emergency to pay federal employees equivalent wages and instead sets them low. You are still limited by federal law to that current $195k, so it means it's impossible for the federal government to hire technical experts and pay them a fair wage.

#3: I'm sure the federal government is paying those people some ridiculous amount of money to put this together, and they'll probably do a decent job because of it. It still doesn't change the fact that federal hiring is really broken, and has become significantly worse in this admin.

[gcanyon]

Serious question: what makes you think team “hold my beer” won’t find a way around past norms, or just ignore them? Not that they actually care enough to do it, but I don’t think they wouldn’t/couldn’t if they did care.

[testing22321]

> Benefits include health insurance, retirement plans, paid time off, and eligibility for performance-based awards

Paid time off???

Health insurance???

Retirement plans????

OMG this is incredible! What an offer!

/s

[alephnerd]

No 401k can ever match the beauty that is the TSP.

[jotux]

Left federal and my private 401k is 150% match up to 6%. Better than TSP in everything except fees, which are slightly higher. But that mattered a lot less than my pay, I was a GS-15 in a leadership role and took a role in the private sector for a 30% pay increase back into an individual contributor role. So much less work and a huge pay increase.

[phantasmish]

3 dollars for every 2 up to 6% of pay? So you could get up to 15% of pay into the 401k (or the annual limit, whichever comes first)?

That’s by far the best I’ve ever heard of. Usually employers screw us by keeping the majority of the max annual contribution, which only they can make, out of our reach with crappy “50% match up to 3%” policies or whatever (even a 100% match means you can’t hit the actual annual max, it has to be higher than that).

[alephnerd]

> my private 401k is 150% match up to 6%

Oh that's actually really good. Beats a TSP for sure even with the fees. But from what I remember you're at a defense contractor - they probably have the best benefits plans overall in the US.

[raw_anon_1111]

I can guarantee you I can save/invest more in the private sector with the gap between public sector pay and make up for the TSP.

[kulahan]

A gov-backed retirement plan actually is nice. You don’t have to worry about losing your Chrysler pension because they went out of business.

[Jtsummers]

As I wrote in another comment, US Tech Force participants doing 2-year stints won't qualify for the gov't backed retirement (unless they were prior military, prior civil service, or find a non-term appointment to follow this stint with). You need three years to keep the 5% TSP (401k equivalent) match, which is similar to many private companies. You also need 5 years to qualify for FERS (if you quit before then you can get your contributions back, but that's optional as you may want to come back to gov't later and have the years count).

[bink]

Amusingly, there's actually a government agency that takes over pension plans from failed companies. PBGC.

[actionfromafar]

Yet another corporate welfare mechanism.

[testing22321]

What I meant was that in developed countries these things are the utter minimum, required by law.

I don’t think it’s worth advertising you offer the bare minimum. Nothing to be proud of

[voidfunc]

If I was late-career with a good solid financial foundation im place and just looking to work to cover living expenses the Federal Gov as fucked as it may be doesn't seem like a bad gig. Since the bar is so incredibly fucking low you just mail it in and collect the money and when youre furloughed you play golf or do extra hobbies. The ball just needs to keep moving, it doesn't actually need to move quickly. Heck it doesn't even need to necessarily move forward.

[raw_anon_1111]

I am 51 “late career” and there is no way in hell I would work for the federal government now.

Even if I didn’t care about the politics, I have made more than the posted salaries working full time for outside consulting companies contracting with the federal government over the last five years and I wasn’t working at the whims of the government

[ipython]

There are way more people calling it in at large orgs or FAANGs. Clearly you've never worked in a civil service position given your foolish caricature of one.

[nextworddev]

Can confirm that 70% of faang are slackers