[godelski]

No, you are the problem because you have a higher expectation than reality. People shouldn't have to run npm in containers. You're over simplifying with one case where you have found one solution while ignoring the identical problems elsewhere. You are preventing us from looking at other solutions because you think the one you have is enough and works for everyone.

[voidnap]

I agree with you that I shouldn't have to treat my libraries like untrusted code. I don't know what the rest of your comment means. I don't see how I'm preventing anybody from looking at other solutions to npm, they just don't want to do it because it's hard. And I have similar criticisms for cargo as it just copies npm and inherits all of its problems. I hate that.

npm has had a bad ecosystem since its inception. The left-pad thing being some of my earliest memories of it [1]. So none of this is new.

But all of this is still an issue because it's too convenient and that's the most important thing. Even cargo copies npm because they want to be seen as convenient and the risk is acknowledged. Nobody has the appetite to be held accountable for who they put their trust in.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Npm_left-pad_incident

[godelski]

The problem is you're victim blaming.

  > snickerbockers > No, your security failure is that you use a package manager
  > you > It isn't victim blaming. People like you make it impossible to avoid attacks like these because you have no appetite for a better security model.

I'd wager a large portion of people with `npm` don't actually realize they have `npm`. I'd also wager that most people that know they have `npm` aren't aware of the security issues.

Under those conditions, people are not in fact making choices. These are not people "that have no appetite for a better security model". These are people who don't even know they are unsafe!

Yes, this is victim blaming. Just in the same way people blame a rape victim for what they wear. Does what you wear modify the situation? Yes. Does it cause the situation? No. We only really blame a victim if they are putting themselves directly, and knowingly, in harms way. This is not that case! This is a case where people are uninformed, both in the dangers present as well as the existence of danger.

FFS, on more than one occasion I've installed a package only to see that it bundles `npm` along with it. And I'm more diligent than most people, so I know tons of people don't know it's happening. Especially because you can't always run `which npm` to find if it is installed. But the fact is that you can do something like `brew install foo` and foo has a dependency that has a dependency that has node as a dependency.

Dependency hell is integral to the problem here! So you can go ahead and choose a package manager that doesn't allow 3rd parties to push arbitrary code and end up with a package manager that allows 3rd parties to push arbitrary code! That's even what made left-pad a thing (and don't get me started on the absurdity of using a module for this functionality!).

  > Nobody has the appetite to be held accountable for who they put their trust in

That is jut not the reality of things. In the real world nobody can read all the lines of code. It just simply isn't possible. You aren't reading everything that you're running, let alone all the dependencies and all the way down to the fucking kernel. There just isn't enough time in the day to do this within your lifetime, even if you are running a very cut down system. There's just too many lines of code!

So stop this bullshit rhetoric of "know what you're running" because it is ignoring the reality of the situation. Yes, people should do due diligence and inspect, but the reality is that this is not possible to do. Nor is it bulletproof, as it requires the reader to be omniscient themselves, or at least a security expert with years of training to even be able to spot security mistakes. Hell, if everyone (or just programmers) already had that kind of training then I'd wager 90+% of issues wouldn't even exist in the code in the first place.

So stop oversimplifying the situation because we can't even begin to talk about what needs to be done to solve things if we can't even discuss the reality of the problem.

[voidnap]

It's cute that you truncated the most important part of the other commenter's message; "your security failure is that you use a package manager [that allows third-parties push arbitrary code into your product with no oversight]."

> I'd wager a large portion of people with `npm` don't actually realize they have `npm`.

Recklessness is not a defense.

> But the fact is that you can do something like `brew install foo` and foo has a dependency that has a dependency that has node as a dependency.

That's good to know. I've never looked at brew and wasn't planing on using it, but I will stay away from it in the future. It sounds like you learned your lesson though, right?

Because if you haven't, that sounds like negligence. You can't be unaccountable for your actions by admitting that you did not expect those outcomes when you did not do your due diligence. And if you don't hold yourself accountable, then you sure aren't about to hold others accountable either. So your whole ecosystem is screwed.

> Yes, this is victim blaming. Just in the same way people blame a rape victim for what they wear.

Not even remotely. I can say and it's bad for people to abuse exploits and they don't deserve that. At the same time, if I put my private key without a passphrase into the public, or commit secrets to git and share them with the public, I am being negligent.

You are leaving your car unlocked with the windows rolled down in a dodgy part of town overnight. And when it's gone/pilfered in the morning, it's completely fair to say that you did a stupid thing.

We can say that is negligent without saying that you deserved it or that it ought to have happened. And it's absolutely okay for me, or anybody else, to say that you should have known better, without you comparing me to a rape apologist.

> In the real world nobody can read all the lines of code. There's just too many lines of code!

I don't know why you went on that rant when you quoted me talking about "trust". I wouldn't need trust if I could fully understand everything about every machine I use and only rely on myself.

> So stop this bullshit rhetoric of "know what you're running" because it is ignoring the reality of the situation.

Naw, it isn't. I trust packages from my operating system's package manager. The issues we see with left-pad and shai-hulud, have never and will never happen to me using those packages because they simply do not accept the kinds of garbage people put up on npm, or brew apparently as you pointed out.

I avoid running stuff like on-my-zsh because I don't have the patience to audit that and I certainly don't want to run untrusted stuff in my shell as root. But it's a very popular package because people, like you, have a greater risk tolerance. And that's fine, as long as you accept the consequences of that risk tolerance. You aren't paying for support or liability, you aren't reading the code, you are putting trust in random sources and hoping that things work out.

If you want the luxury running untrusted code as root, or the luxury of leaving your car open in a dodgy part of town overnight, then maybe maybe what you want is a surveillance state, idk. There is a cost to that. A tradeoff. If that's what you want and that's your goal, then I can't stop you. But it's you could also just ... not do such risky things.