[Manuel_D]

What's keeping any one of these Id software developers from accepting a competing job offer elsewhere?

Yes, there are scenarios where employees are stripped of agency. E.g a factory owner taking and holding foreign worker's passports. But if you're going to allege that something is preventing these works from accepting competing offers, you have to offer evidence for that claim.

[Daishiman]

> What's keeping any one of these Id software developers from accepting a competing job offer elsewhere?

* Employer-bound health insurance in the US

* Industry blacklists to exclude uppity employees and union members

* Noncompetes and NDAs

* Extremely localized jobs and an ever-shrinking number of larger and larger conglomerates as employers

[Manuel_D]

> Employer-bound health insurance in the US

Benefits are part of an employees compensation package. A competing offer could have even better healthcare than Id.

> Industry blacklists to exclude uppity employees and union members.

This is illegal and the last time SV companies were found doing this the government punished them

Is there any evidence that this is happening to Id employees?

> Noncompetes

Illegal in CA where ID is based. NDAs don't prevent you from working at competitors, only from taking confidential info.

> Extremely localized jobs and an ever-shrinking number of larger and larger conglomerates as employers.

Id is located in the Bay Area, probably the place with the greatest concentration of software jobs in the country if not the world.

[Daishiman]

> Benefits are part of an employees compensation package. A competing offer could have even better healthcare than Id.

If a period of unemployment kicks you off an insurance program that's covering life-essential treatment for a loved one, there is no mechanism of "choosing freely" here; ex-employees don't have the option of covering health care themselves and there are no guarantees that the other employer's health care will cover existing treatments even if the coverage is better in theory.

> This is illegal and the last time SV companies were found doing this the government punished them

Every recruiter has spreadsheets of blacklisted employees, one of the reasons why companies frequently outsource staffing to outsides for plausible deniability.

> Illegal in CA where ID is based. NDAs don't prevent you from working at competitors, only from taking confidential info.

So illegal en CA but legal pretty much everywhere else, once again limiting you if you want to move because COL is too high in California and reducing the pool of real employment alternatives.

> Id is located in the Bay Area, probably the place with the greatest concentration of software jobs in the country if not the world.

Software jobs but not gaming jobs. California suffers from an artificial shortage of affordable housing due to insane tax laws and building restrictions. There's nothing free market about this.

[Manuel_D]

Id employees can apply for jobs while remaining employed at Id. You're writing as though Id employees must first quit their jobs before seeking a new one. And even if they do have a period of unemployment between jobs, COBRA continues to cover them for up to a year.

> Every recruiter has spreadsheets of blacklisted employees

If you're going to allege illegal anti-poaching agreements, you ought to provide evidence of those claims.

> So illegal en CA but legal pretty much everywhere else, once again limiting you if you want to move because COL is too high in California and reducing the pool of real employment alternatives.

Actually, I just checked this and in 2024 the FTC banned non competes nationwide.

> Software jobs but not gaming jobs. California suffers from an artificial shortage of affordable housing due to insane tax laws and building restrictions. There's nothing free market about this.

And? Id software developers are free to work non-gaming software jobs. A big part of the reason why game dev jobs offer less renumeration is because people are passionate about games and are willing to take a pay cut to work in the industry.

If an Id employee is not willing to work non-gaming software development jobs that's a restriction imposed by their own decisions, not by their employers.

People in this thread are comparing Id software developers to slavery. The fact that they'll have to go on COBRA in between jobs doesn't make this comparison to slavery any less absurd.

[Daishiman]

> If you're going to allege illegal anti-poaching agreements, you ought to provide evidence of those claims.

Yes because companies are famous for being highly law-abiding under every circumstance and every major instance of corporate fraud has been identified and properly punished at a criminal basis.

C'mon man, the US is a country where wage theft is 3 times higher than all other formst of theft combined. Informal blacklists are as simple as keeping a notebook in writing and letting people know through hidden WhatsApp channels.

> Actually, I just checked this and in 2024 the FTC banned non competes nationwide.

The rule is vacated by an injunction.

> And? Id software developers are free to work non-gaming software jobs. A big part of the reason why game dev jobs offer less renumeration is because people are passionate about games and are willing to take a pay cut to work in the industry.

I have no idea why you think that a job being desirable and in high demand means that the people who effectively perform the job are somehow less deserving of workers' rights. The entire point behind having workers' rights is that basic job affordances and rights a non-negotiable because we do not allow certain forms undignified work.

[Manuel_D]

So you're asking to prove a negative with respect to blacklisting?

Some factories have been caught physically locking employees in the building and not letting them leave. Can I say with certainty that this isn't happening at Id? No, but it's still not valid to baselessly assert that it is happening at Id Technologies because other instances of this behavior have been documented.

The fact that desirable jobs like game dev means employers don't have to compete as hard to attract talent. That's not infringing on game developers' rights. Game developers have the ability to work in jobs other than game dev. If they choose not to pursue those opportunities that's a choice they're making on their own initiative, not an infringement on their rights.

Workers rights like safe working environments, minimum wage, and other laws still apply to game devs.

[linuxftw]

Remember when the tech companies got caught making deals not to poach each other's employees?

Maybe they can just start their own company. Well, you can't for the existing players to peer traffic with you if you need heavy network access.

[Manuel_D]

Do you have evidence that Id is being subject to some sort of no poach deal?

Nobody doubts that employers can curb worker's ability to accept competing offers. The question is whether there's actually any evidence backing up the claim that Id employees aren't free to leave.

[salawat]

Doesn't need it to justify unionizing. Unionizing is a right, and it was previously not exercised because there was no evidence of the will of the market to defraud or conspire against workers. It is now written plain for all to see that indeed, these types of arrangements are kept in board members back pockets. It is not their job to protect a companies interest in renumeration execs and shareholders. It is their job to get their share in spite of the management class's proven track records of the proclivity to engage in shenanigans and lies.

The fact you can't understand solidarity is your problem, not theirs.

[Manuel_D]

I'm not disputing that employees have right to try and form a union.

I'm asking people who are insisting that Id employees are not free to accept competing offers to back up those claims with evidence.

[salawat]

And I'm telling you that what you're asking for doesn't mean a lick. Someone already pissed in the pool. Once you know it's been done, you can't uncrack that egg.

Plan on capabilities. Not "what you feel like they might draw the lines". Odds are, your feelings are in error, and they are capable of much worse. And if they're actually decent people, to everyone, all is good. If all they want is to juice the most out of the most gullible/naive, that's what the union is for.

We cannot have nice things.

[Manuel_D]

Again, is there any evidence that Id Technologies has engaged in the illegal practices that have been mentioned in this thread? People have been confidently asserting this, but but when asked to substantiate this the best they can do is point to example of other companies engaging in such practices.

If you support the unionization effort for other reasons, that's fine, but let's be clear: the allegations that Id is engaging in no-poaching agreements or some other illegal activities remain totally baseless. There is no reason to think that there's something preventing Id employees from accepting competing job offers from other companies, despite the insistence to contrary in this thread.

[jimbokun]

Corporations have been caught colluding to suppress wages by refusing to hire anyone working for one of the other companies.

How many of these collusions have not been brought to light?

[Manuel_D]

You're asking me to prove a negative. Bosses at other companies have been caught locking employees in factories and physically preventing them from leaving.

Can I say for certain that this didn't happen at Id? No, but anyone making that claim ought to actually provide evidence that it happened at Id, not simple point to some other company that engaged in this behavior.

[mlrtime]

Aren't there laws already against that? It's happened before but is it common, do we have evidence that it is prevalent in Software Engineering?

[buellerbueller]

WHat's keeping a company from providing fair wages, fair labor practices such that unions are unnecessary?

EDIT: I guess you can just downvote, sure, but why not engage?

[popalchemist]

You are correct. Unions do not exist to exploit employers, they exist precisely to make working conditions acceptable (livable) and no more, most of the time. There are outliers, like Police unions, which have ulterior motives, but on the whole it is a labor movement meant to prevent the abhorrent conditions to which capitalism naturally backslides, which we saw after the industrial revolution.